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Actually, I think we were under estimating Snake in the previous matchup. 45:55 was slightly generous of a matchup. I think it goes 40:60, and it's pretty much because it's a really uphill battle. A good Snake should always have control over the map, and will always have options for what we throw at him.Rediscussing Snake is a stupid idea. It hasn't changed at all. We should've done Mario. >_> I'll be on a lot less so you won't be hearing from me anytime soon.
snake shouldnt be camping here. tink has one of the best projectile games in smash, and should be able to overwhelm snake and force an approach.Snake's tilts are statuatory ****. (Quite literally acutally, Toon Link is 12 years old LOL) He will abuse Ftilt and some will save Utilt for killing. A good Snake knows how to cook nades to the last second, and a good Snake will, so beware.
But TL isn't without his tricks too. Snake has alata priority in the air and his Bair and Uair can be used to space and kill, repectively. We're faster in the air but if he keeps up pressure we could slip up and get pwnt. So its pretty even in the air.
Not sure who wins on gimping but I think his Cypher, though has super-armor, can't sweetspot the ledge so try and get him as he's coming up. Also is it cool to dair the Cypher? o_o
Play a good mid-range game and try not to get D-thrown too much, he could follow that up with something nasty. Snake out-ranges TL but that doesnt mean you should let up on the wall of flying spam. Keep bombs in hands and keep zair pressure on him at all times.
60:40 Snake. Just correct anything I said wrong. ^^
If you don't move immediately he can utilt or ftilt. If you attack, you attack AWAY first, so he has time to see it and the block. If you roll behind him he can just take his time and pivot. If you roll away it's easy enough for him to see it and catch you again (and once you're at the ledge it's easier to read that).Snakes D-throw is overrated. There I said it.
But seriously, I've never had any trouble with it, just don't be predictable. Heck, even just lay still sometimes and wait for them to jump the gun, or just do the normal get up. The point is, mix it up, mix up the timing and the way you get up, and I don't see you having any trouble. Don't get me wrong though, there is a very high chance of Snake getting a follow up to his D-throw, but it is no where near an infinite. If a Snake player can infinite Toon with D-throw, then the Toon is doing it wrong.
LOLwut?An excellent counter for Toon Link is Ness.
Does it? I'm not even sure. I've never really have problems with Ness. I suppose that means all the ones I've played are bad.Umm radori doesnt ness' fair destroy arrows? It destroys boomer so I thought it would also beat arrows. Besides arrows are easily PS'd. But I guess Ill try arrow camping yubi in tourney . (He beat me in a friendly set).If all else fails, I resort to ddd lol. I find Ness hard to camp because his fair beats boomer, outranges nair and bair, and can catch bombs D:.
He's so frikken heavyI just wanna say that almost all my kills on snake are upairs after I get them off the ledge and they are returning from the ceiling >_>. Yeah Snake is really tough to kill :/. But upair does the job. Bair juggling is awesome too.
I think fair does the job really well when he's recovering with the Cypher. Uair is probably going to be our main killing move though. We can outcamp him pretty efficiently. We have to keep track of what bombs are what, and where they're planted. It can get pretty difficult at times.I just wanna say that almost all my kills on snake are upairs after I get them off the ledge and they are returning from the ceiling >_>. Yeah Snake is really tough to kill :/. But upair does the job. Bair juggling is awesome too.
That's an interesting tactic. I completely forgot about the SHDA blocking grenades. They are seriously like perfect height for nade sniping. I like to use charged arrows when a Snake is using the Cypher. I count headshots. It's not the best edge guard technique, but it deals a nice amount of damage.Just thought I'd say, from playing this matchup a decent bit yesterday, I found that arrows are more helpful then usual. Specifically, the SHDA. It was quite effective at stopping the nades in their tracks like right in front of them and then you had the extra quickdraw coming at them.
I dunno, it just seemed to help me quite a bit in the spam war more then the other projectiles. But maybe it was just because the snake didn't know how to deal with them. What can they do other then power shield? He tried F-tilting and U-tilting them, but that didn't work either. I spose it also helps that Snake is so tall so that the first arrow will always hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCRQK-f478#t=3m50sThat's an interesting tactic. I completely forgot about the SHDA blocking grenades. They are seriously like perfect height for nade sniping. I like to use charged arrows when a Snake is using the Cypher. I count headshots. It's not the best edge guard technique, but it deals a nice amount of damage.
This is probably the best advice i have heard in a match up thread in awhile and it is so simple (playing snake as if he was DDD)100:0 Snake! We get *****!!! /trolling
The most basic thing any toonlink should know is stay atleast 2 rolls away from snake and his tilts. Try to catch snake in the air where we can rack up damage. Uair is our best kill move on this heavy *******. Try not to becoming predictable if you get grabbed....better yet dont get grabbed and think of snake as DDD.
Lastly our camp game > his
Back Throw is really good if you actually end up grabbing Snake. Especially when you have your back facing the ledge. In the right percents, it launches them downward and away.This is probably the best advice i have heard in a match up thread in awhile and it is so simple (playing snake as if he was DDD)
What stages should we counter/ban? I usually take out halberd first and I have heard of lylat being good for snake but no snakes have counter it against me.
EDIT: Snakes have used Bair on me immediately after I used toonlinks down throw at relatively low percentages.
See, the bad thing is that.. You'll eventually HAVE to get close, since you don't have ranged killers. Snake can kill with his projectiles (grenades, C4, mines, nikita, mortar), so he can stay away and gain distance by DACUSing across the stages, resetting all of your zoning in the blink of an eye... Proper DACUSing will make it unpunishable, so don't think you can beat it by naming attacks, because he might want to use it while you pull out a bomb, start a SHDL, while you're offstage, etc....Halberd actually isn't as bad a stage as Frigate Orpheon in my opinion, Halberd may have a lower ceiling but if you know how to stay away from close range combat then you are probably better off banning Frigate because there have been some crafty players who can gimp pretty well on that stage.
Preventing Snake from laying a bomb in the field is like preventing ICs from grabbing you... WAAAAY easier said than done.As long as you keep a balance between being aggressive and defensive in mid-long range and you try to prevent Snake from laying out a bomb field, then the match up isn't frustrating as it may appear to be.
Agreed. I, as a Kirby/ZSS mainer, know this too be true all too well. You have to **** them in order to be on the winning side, since he kills you earlier than you'll ever kill him... He kills you at 120-130% for example, while you HAVE to kill him at 160%+ because of his weight and momentum canceling techniques. Whenever you both are at the same %, HE'S actually having the advantage, because he'll kill you first at that rate.The thing about Snake is, even when you feel like you're winning, you're actually losing. Snake's try to fight with one thing in mind, always try to at least trade hits. If they trade hits (in other words, if you hit them but they also hit you) they are actually winning because of their incredible kill power and weight. So pretty much, in order for you to be actually winning, you have to feel like you're ****** them. As in, you arn't even being touched.
I'm pretty sure I've already talked a bit about the matchup, but I just wanted to clear that bit up, cause I was seeing a few people saying, they feel like they never do too bad in this matchup and I used to think like that too.
Your wrong....You can't outcamp Snake, whatever your biased towards you should know this. And this goes to all the TL mains who think TL can outcamp Snake, not specifically naming anyone.
I used to play Snake, so I know a very decent amount of stuff... And I still believe Snake outcamps TL, because we can powershield his things and stay away, but TL has to block/evade grenades AND explosions... While they may not make a Snake move, grenades' zoning traits make it so that you can pressure TL with your grenades, more than TL can pressure you with his projectiles, which get even easier to powershield if you don't approach and just shieldcamp and grenade spam (no one likes doing this, but if worse comes to worst, a Snake has and WILL USE that option to take back the advantage).Your wrong....
Sorry.
The problem is even with Toon link outcamping snake...he has to go in like you've already said, and in there lies the issue. Snake doesn't really care that hes taking chip damage, simply because once he gets in, its ****.
P.S. I play snake
Its like u dont play me or see me play :/. Dude, u know TL outcamps snake. Thats what saves me from Rated when we play XD (and gimping lol). The problem is snake's close combat game, weight and kill power. 55-45 snake.I used to play Snake, so I know a very decent amount of stuff... And I still believe Snake outcamps TL, because we can powershield his things and stay away, but TL has to block/evade grenades AND explosions... While they may not make a Snake move, grenades' zoning traits make it so that you can pressure TL with your grenades, more than TL can pressure you with his projectiles, which get even easier to powershield if you don't approach and just shieldcamp and grenade spam (no one likes doing this, but if worse comes to worst, a Snake has and WILL USE that option to take back the advantage).
TL can either get closer (towards Snake's deadly close-range game), farther (towads the ledge, where Snake can just shieldwalk and punish your zair due to you not having enough ground to properly space your zairs), or upwards by jumping (but in doing so, you postpone your projectile game, so Snake could get closer if he wanted to)... And no matter what option you choose, given enough time, Snake will zone you to the edge of the stage.
It's not that I'm underrating TL, it's that I know Snake vs TL isn't 55:45 Snake, much less even... It's a disadvantage, so 60:40 Snake's.