Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Mewtwo matchup. Any input is appreciated.

There isn't a dedicated general matchup thread in the sub-forum, so I'm posting here.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Mewtwo matchup. Any input is appreciated.

There isn't a dedicated general matchup thread in the sub-forum, so I'm posting here.

There is, but it is down the list a bit. I

 

[Blue Banana]

There is, but it is down the list a bit. I

Are you referring to the directory? I saw that and I'd post there, but it's locked.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Are you referring to the directory? I saw that and I'd post there, but it's locked.

No, we have a general MU discussion. Though it hasn't been used in a week or two. Most people should see it here, so don't worry.

 

[Swoops]

Just wanted to pop in and say that Baby Shadow Balls (or BBs for short) are amazing and quite possibly huge game changers in certain match ups. They've helped me control space in so many effective ways, especially at short hop height.

Also, jab x2 > followup is really good as a mixup to jab x1 > followup. The second jab seems like a very tight trap that can snag double jumps, essentially eliminating one of their options to get out of jab x1 > followup.

 

[Mr. B]

So... Confusion....

I use this all the time, for extending airtime and reflecting. It has some pretty grody endlag which mainly messes me up when I am trying to confusion over an opponent into BAir - the hitboxes don't have time to come out before landing for max lag...

However, when it comes to the actual command grab element, am I the only one who finds that any serious opponent simply jumps to avoid followup, or FAirs to punish? It strikes me that the command grab is completely useless on the ground, and only marginally better in the air... it would be a great option to use on shields or counter-happy opponents if it didn't leave me in such a bad position afterwards, and I am wondering what I am doing wrong. Any pointers?

 

[Swoops]

So... Confusion....

I use this all the time, for extending airtime and reflecting. It has some pretty grody endlag which mainly messes me up when I am trying to confusion over an opponent into BAir - the hitboxes don't have time to come out before landing for max lag...

However, when it comes to the actual command grab element, am I the only one who finds that any serious opponent simply jumps to avoid followup, or FAirs to punish? It strikes me that the command grab is completely useless on the ground, and only marginally better in the air... it would be a great option to use on shields or counter-happy opponents if it didn't leave me in such a bad position afterwards, and I am wondering what I am doing wrong. Any pointers?

After watching a lot of @RichBrown and @!Blue! it's a pretty great alternative to grab.

Run away and use pivot Confusion, approach with confusion, etc. It has a great disjoint and catches the opponents' hurtboxes at ridiculous distances from what I've seen. You may rarely get a follow up, but it demands the opponent take an action, which can put them in a bad situation that you are able to capitalize on. 9% isn't bad either for a 12f command grab with that range. Same damage as his DThrow, with a much better chance for followups as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still working on my confusion game myself, but my main advice would start using it a little more liberally, do nothing after you land it and take special notice of what they do after the confusion. If they are quick to aerial immediately, shield and punish. If they double jump often, UTilt and FAir are your best bets. Even if there reactions are quick and they get away with the DJ, they are now above you with NO double jump (huge advantage, prime UAir/Shadow Ball opportunity.) If they air dodge often, congratulations you won the Mewtwo lottery, they are not smart.

 

[Mr. B]

... If they are quick to aerial immediately, shield and punish.

My problem seems to be that my endlag is too brutal to get the shield up fast enough to avoid the aerial. I will work on this tonight...

If they jump, airdodge or do nothing then yeah, I admit it doesn't always go bad for me - The problem is that smart players will always go for the aerial and nudge my fudge for a lot more than 9%.

 

[Swoops]

My problem seems to be that my endlag is too brutal to get the shield up fast enough to avoid the aerial. I will work on this tonight...

If they jump, airdodge or do nothing then yeah, I admit it doesn't always go bad for me - The problem is that smart players will always go for the aerial and nudge my fudge for a lot more than 9%.

Pretty sure that shouldn't happen, even with a frame 3 aerial. I've seen players block at least Diddy's FAir which is frame 6.

This brings up an interesting question I had that someone might be able to help with. What is Confusion's exact frame advantage on hit? My gut and experience has me thinking it's completely even, but maybe it's -1/-2? Would be good to know.

 

[Chiroz]

Pretty sure that shouldn't happen, even with a frame 3 aerial. I've seen players block at least Diddy's FAir which is frame 6.

This brings up an interesting question I had that someone might be able to help with. What is Confusion's exact frame advantage on hit? My gut and experience has me thinking it's completely even, but maybe it's -1/-2? Would be good to know.

From my tests it seemed to either be completely even or -1, but I was just testing U-Tilt vs some aerials and seeing which ones it could beat. It's not exactly accurate.

There is no aerial with enough range to hit us that we cannot shield.

 

[Mr. B]

There is no aerial with enough range to hit us that we cannot shield.

Bold claim. Didn't get on Wii last night after all, but I will practice the timing. Presumably we should also be technically able to AD after performing confusion in the air? I notice this with Corrin particularly, since she is made of blades and seems to punish me for the command grab before confusion is even finished.

 

[Chiroz]

Bold claim. Didn't get on Wii last night after all, but I will practice the timing. Presumably we should also be technically able to AD after performing confusion in the air? I notice this with Corrin particularly, since she is made of blades and seems to punish me for the command grab before confusion is even finished.

Shield is frame 1, Air Dodge is Frame 2. Confusion also has different properties on the ground and on the air, which could mean different endlag, although I have no idea.

I am still 99.9% sure there is no aerial we cannot shield, I mean we can shield Sheik's F-Air and N-Air (frame 5 and 3) and, as far as I know, there is no aerial faster than frame 3 except for maybe Little Mac's but those don't really matter anyways.

I am 90% sure there is no aerial we cannot Air Dodge if we buffer the Air Dodge.



Edit: Just tested against Corrin's N-Air and F-Air on training at 1/4th speed. Mewtwo can definitely Air Dodge both, but the move seemed to hit the very next frame. Since Corrin's F-Air is frame 6, it leads me to believe Aerials with 4 or less frames might actually hit Mewtwo in the air. I am going to test that.

 

[Chiroz]

Alright, so after testing Mewtwo's Confusion I can safely say it is -3 on advantage. This means Mewtwo's Shield comes up frame 4 and Mewtwo's Air Dodge comes up frame 5.

The reason why he is able to avoid all the frame 3 N-Airs is because of the range. Confusion leaves the opponent far away from Mewtwo so they would need to drift at least 1-3 frame into Mewtwo which causes Mewtwo to PS all of the "combo breakers" such as Mario, Sheik, Yoshi and Luigi's N-Air.

Being a frame 5 Air Dodge also allows Mewtwo to Air Dodge any aerial that is not frame 4 or less (just like in my original hypothesis), but I believe there is no <4 frame aerial with enough range that starts diagonally downwards (since Mewtwo will end up below and in front of the opponent) in the game. As such I believe Mewtwo is able to air dodge any aerial in the game if he reacts fast enough.

 

[Mr. B]

I am still 99.9% sure there is no aerial we cannot shield.

Less bold, but still very cool. I'll be interested to read any further thoughts you might have on this topic Raykz...

It used to be that I could confusion > FAir/UAir consistently, but it looks like I am going to have to start assuming I should dodge/shield, and I need to get the timings into muscle memory.

 

[Chiroz]

Less bold, but still very cool. I'll be interested to read any further thoughts you might have on this topic Raykz...

It used to be that I could confusion > FAir/UAir consistently, but it looks like I am going to have to start assuming I should dodge/shield, and I need to get the timings into muscle memory.

I posted a 2nd post with the information.

I might be forgetting some obscure aerial from a low tier, but as far as high tiers are concerned I don't think there's any aerial that can hit us out of Confusion.

When on the ground, after my first Confusion I normally shield. If I notice my opponent is aggressive next time I go for movement option (PP, dashing away, etc). If he is defensive I go for an aggressive option.

On the air I regularly go for F-Air first. Most people need to be mashing an aerial to beat out F-Air. Now that we know Confusion is -3, this means F-Air hits on frame 9. Most other aerials like Sheik's F-Air barely reach Mewtwo which means it hits him around frame 7. If they go for aggressive options then I normally just drift away, it dodges most aerials that have enough range and speed, if it doesn't (like Corrin's N-Air which also hits us around frame 7 and has enough range to hit us) then I just mash air dodge and drift away. If they get hit by F-Air then I keep doing F-Air.

 

[Mr. B]

My muscle memory tends to autoplay FAir in those situations too, but part of my game is to note when muscle memory is failing me and recode it accordingly. This week is "confusion protocol" week.

Your words are useful in this endeavour, so thanks for your lab time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I posted a 2nd post with the information.

I might be forgetting some obscure aerial from a low tier, but as far as high tiers are concerned I don't think there's any aerial that can hit us out of Confusion.

When on the ground, after my first Confusion I normally shield. If I notice my opponent is aggressive next time I go for movement option (PP, dashing away, etc). If he is defensive I go for an aggressive option.

On the air I regularly go for F-Air first. Most people need to be mashing an aerial to beat out F-Air. Now that we know Confusion is -3, this means F-Air hits on frame 9. Most other aerials like Sheik's F-Air barely reach Mewtwo which means it hits him around frame 7. If they go for aggressive options then I normally just drift away, it dodges most aerials that have enough range and speed, if it doesn't (like Corrin's N-Air which also hits us around frame 7 and has enough range to hit us) then I just mash air dodge and drift away. If they get hit by F-Air then I keep doing F-Air.

Is there more lag on a grounded confusion? Also, Confusion autocancels out of a SH.

 

[Mr. B]

Got an hour in earlier today (lunch break well spent).

It feels to me like there might be more endlag on an aerial confusion UNLESS an opponent is caught in the effect. Tested this while confusion-recovery > ledge-grabbing if there is an opponent near the edge then they get flipped and you catch the ledge. If not, the move doesn't quite end in time to grab the ledge.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Got an hour in earlier today (lunch break well spent).

It feels to me like there might be more endlag on an aerial confusion UNLESS an opponent is caught in the effect. Tested this while confusion-recovery > ledge-grabbing if there is an opponent near the edge then they get flipped and you catch the ledge. If not, the move doesn't quite end in time to grab the ledge.

Could it be Mewtwo stalling in the air longer?

 

[Mr. B]

Could be. It could also be slight variations in the starting point, spatially. Difficult to tell.

It is simply something I have observed, and since the topic for the (my) day is "Confusion - How does it work", I thought I would mention it.

 

[Chiroz]

Is there more lag on a grounded confusion? Also, Confusion autocancels out of a SH.

I don't think any specials auto cancel in Smash 4. Confusion just ends before you land.

Got an hour in earlier today (lunch break well spent).

It feels to me like there might be more endlag on an aerial confusion UNLESS an opponent is caught in the effect. Tested this while confusion-recovery > ledge-grabbing if there is an opponent near the edge then they get flipped and you catch the ledge. If not, the move doesn't quite end in time to grab the ledge.

That's probably because Mewtwon stalls in the air if he hits an opponent.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't think any specials auto cancel in Smash 4. Confusion just ends before you land.





That's probably because Mewtwon stalls in the air if he hits an opponent.

That's what I meant.

 

[Chiroz]

That's what I meant.

Yea, but I meant it's very different.

When a move auto cancels you don't suffer lag upon landing. Which means you can't be punished. This is all good

Confusion lags the exact same it just doesn't let you fall before the lag ends, which is also bad because after the lag ends then you also have to now land which is always a disadvantageous situation, meaning there's more time to punish you. This is all bad.

In general you want to avoid doing SH Confusion for close range spacing in neutral (like you would auto cancelled aerials). It is much better to just do dash/pivot/grounded Confusions.

Don't get me wrong. Aerial Confusions have a lot of use, specially because of the huge disjoint and great mobility but those uses are very different from the uses of an auto cancellable attack.



Edit: Also I was very wrong.

Some specials do auto cancel, I was just remembering that Fox/Falco/Samus projectiles got the auto cancelling removed in Smash 4 but forgot about moves like Pikachu's Up-B, Bowser's Side-B and many others which do auto cancel.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yea, but I meant it's very different.

When a move auto cancels you don't suffer lag upon landing. Which means you can't be punished. This is all good

Confusion lags the exact same it just doesn't let you fall before the lag ends, which is also bad because after the lag ends then you also have to now land which is always a disadvantageous situation, meaning there's more time to punish you. This is all bad.

In general you want to avoid doing SH Confusion for close range spacing in neutral (like you would auto cancelled aerials). It is much better to just do dash/pivot/grounded Confusions.

Don't get me wrong. Aerial Confusions have a lot of use, specially because of the huge disjoint and great mobility but those uses are very different from the uses of an auto cancellable attack.



Edit: Also I was very wrong.

Some specials do auto cancel, I was just remembering that Fox/Falco/Samus projectiles got the auto cancelling removed in Smash 4 but forgot about moves like Pikachu's Up-B, Bowser's Side-B and many others which do auto cancel.

I meant I misused the term autocancel. I usually use it in the context of landing without any lag. Though that is usually FAF (Total Frames) with specials.

 

[meleebrawler]

Edit: Also I was very wrong.

Some specials do auto cancel, I was just remembering that Fox/Falco/Samus projectiles got the auto cancelling removed in Smash 4 but forgot about moves like Pikachu's Up-B, Bowser's Side-B and many others which do auto cancel.

I think there's even a tip for Falco Phantasm pointing out it autocancels if done almost immediately after a jump.

 

[Chiroz]

I think there's even a tip for Falco Phantasm pointing out it autocancels if done almost immediately after a jump.

Yes, so does a lot of other specials . I don't know why I forgot about like 1/8th of the specials in the game. But anyways, Confusion is definitely not one of those.

 

[Sonicninja115]

New vids!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzEy-G_gmvQ
Teleport angles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m849DQ10l6Y
Phasing

I have a ton of Nair KB videos coming out soonish.

 

[LRodC]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwos-up-throw-kill-percents.428238/

Hey guys, I updated the up throw kill percents chart for 1.1.4. I added Corrin and Bayonetta, redid the percentages for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina, and I redid the Mii Fighters. I still have to add Guest Miis. They're ranged for now.

 

[Sonicninja115]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwos-up-throw-kill-percents.428238/

Hey guys, I updated the up throw kill percents chart for 1.1.4. I added Corrin and Bayonetta, redid the percentages for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina, and I redid the Mii Fighters. I still have to add Guest Miis. They're ranged for now.

I just realized that I have to re-do my percents for Shiek....

 

[LRodC]

I just realized that I have to re-do my percents for Shiek....

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... I doubt it's more than a 1-2% difference. That's what I noticed for the up throw, anyway.

Could we possibly compile or link to our data into one topic that's stickied so that these don't get lost within the forum over time? Talking about your n-air knockback guide, any kill percents for smashes, throws, combos, or other useful information, etc. so that people can easily access and find stuff. Like a directory of sorts.

 

[Metalex]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... I doubt it's more than a 1-2% difference. That's what I noticed for the up throw, anyway.

Could we possibly compile or link to our data into one topic that's stickied so that these don't get lost within the forum over time? Talking about your n-air knockback guide, any kill percents for smashes, throws, combos, or other useful information, etc. so that people can easily access and find stuff. Like a directory of sorts.

This is something i've been thinking about too. Sonicninja's comprehensive Mewtwo community guide includes links to important topics but i agree that it would be handy with a Mewtwo directory in the sticky threads who just includes links to important topics. Most other character forums have this sort of thing anyway and it would make stuff easier to find.

 

[LRodC]

This is something i've been thinking about too. Sonicninja's comprehensive Mewtwo community guide includes links to important topics but i agree that it would be handy with a Mewtwo directory in the sticky threads who just includes links to important topics. Most other character forums have this sort of thing anyway and it would make stuff easier to find.

I can make one with all of the information compiled so far. I can take care of that tonight after I get out of class and improve it as I find more relevant stuff to include. I don't mind.

 

[Metalex]

I can make one with all of the information compiled so far. I can take care of that tonight after I get out of class and improve it as I find more relevant stuff to include. I don't mind.

Well do you mind if i do it? i already started working on it and have come quite far Should be done tomorrow sometime.

 

[LRodC]

Well do you mind if i do it? i already started working on it and have come quite far Should be done tomorrow sometime.

Sure, go ahead.

 

[Mr. B]

Confusion lags the exact same it just doesn't let you fall before the lag ends, which is also bad because after the lag ends then you also have to now land which is always a disadvantageous situation, meaning there's more time to punish you. This is all bad.

Is this also the case when using confusion for the second time in the air? A couple of times I have idly tried to mix a second aerial confusion into my game, thinking it could be an interesting mixup, but I have never actually labbed it. Looks like I know what I am doing with my lunch hour today...

 

[Metalex]

Sure, go ahead.

Did the directory topic now, though i will add more stuff in there today:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-resource-directory-i-look-here-for-info.431894/

Is there a thread anywhere with Mewtwo's Framedata that i can link to in there btw? I know about Kuroganehammer's Framedata topic but it was removed from the sticky's for some reason and im not sure if it's outdated.

 

[Chiroz]

Is this also the case when using confusion for the second time in the air? A couple of times I have idly tried to mix a second aerial confusion into my game, thinking it could be an interesting mixup, but I have never actually labbed it. Looks like I know what I am doing with my lunch hour today...

2nd Aerial Confusion does not lift you up in the air so, no. It's equivalent to doing it on the ground tbh, except you retain your momentum so you can actually approach with Confusion. 2nd aerial Confusion is the best type of Confusion to use offensively tbh. It's also a good landing option vs someone who'se just applying non-stop pressure.

 

[LRodC]

Sometimes I use grounded Confusion to stuff predictable approaches due to the large hitbox and ability to bypass shield, is it generally good at this purpose or is there a move that could fulfill that niche better?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Did the directory topic now, though i will add more stuff in there today:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-resource-directory-i-look-here-for-info.431894/

Is there a thread anywhere with Mewtwo's Framedata that i can link to in there btw? I know about Kuroganehammer's Framedata topic but it was removed from the sticky's for some reason and im not sure if it's outdated.

SB removed it because of random monetary reasons. Use Kuro's data.

 

[Chiroz]

Sometimes I use grounded Confusion to stuff predictable approaches due to the large hitbox and ability to bypass shield, is it generally good at this purpose or is there a move that could fulfill that niche better?

I use it like this a lot too. It lags quite a bit so be careful as your opponent might bait you to use it and then punish you hard for it.

It's still really effective.