Shine

[SpeedyJ]

What kind of changes would you like to see made to Fox's shine (assuming wavedashing doesn't return).

It was so trash in Brawl so at this rate I'll take any improvement they give us lol.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I think some of the kinetic energy received from a successful reflection should be released as a small shock wave, just for style. The hitbox for the shine should definitely be larger.

I don't know much about Pit's new shields, but if they still block physical damage, then the shine is certainly going to need an upgrade to compete with Pit's double-sided physical shield and the Villager's ability to grab and return projectiles on the fly.

 

[M@v]

Your first mistake is saying shine is trash in brawl; it definitely isn't. Its just not a horrifically overpowered move like melee because it doesnt have a set knockback + you can't jump cancel out of it in brawl.

Secondly, I wouldn't mind seeing it pretty much the same. If they make changes to it, let us jump cancel out of it again. In brawl, its great for recovering(shine stall) and as a GTFO move (comes out in like 3-4 frames + invulnerable on startup)

 

[_R@bid_]

I'm fine with anything but full Melee shine. I love Melee, but a frame 1 invincible set knockback jump-cancelable spike that can combo onstage and gimp offstage at any percent is nowhere near the realms of balance.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

please no to the ugly brawl shine stalling

IMO make it like brawl, but only make the first one (or two?) actually stall the character

 

[Jiv]

I'd like a shine that's not jump cancelable, but when you press down b and release the shine goes away however fast you do that

 

[M@v]

please no to the ugly brawl shine stalling

IMO make it like brawl, but only make the first one (or two?) actually stall the character

My only problem with this is it may make the move not powerful enough. If you can't infinitely shine stall with it, something else needs to be added imo, whether its the ability to jump cancel, or make it have a slightly longer range or even faster startup.

 

[ImaClubYou]

It should be jump cancelable and that's it.

 

[Jet300]

Fox shine should be jump cancelable in smash 4. It'll give him another useful option with when he uses shine.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly I think the one frame activation in Melee was OP. It's meant to be a reflector and a get-off-me attack.

 

[Retroend]

Fox shine should be jump cancelable in smash 4. It'll give him another useful option with when he uses shine.

It should be jump cancelable and that's it.

No no no! seems like you really want melee fox back and i really dont want that brokeness back.

 

[extremechiton]

bring us a new shine.

 

[ImaClubYou]

No no no! seems like you really want melee fox back and i really dont want that brokeness back.

I said just jump cancelable. Not the same stun, combo opportunies, and the likes.

There's not much you can do with a shine being jump cancelable only. I woukd imagine if you can shine spike, it would have to hit twice.

 

[D1]

Honestly I think the one frame activation in Melee was OP. It's meant to be a reflector and a get-off-me attack.

A 1 frame get off me attack sounds just about right. Taking away the invincibility on startup maybe might nerf it, then again they tried that with Project M 2.6 and it seems like they're still good. Being able to JC it makes Fox way better. W/o it Fox should mainly run and gun, while intercepting his opponents advances w/ nairs/bairs/utilts. I just wanna uthrow uair/bair like the good ol' days.

 

[Viceversa96]

No no no! seems like you really want melee fox back and i really dont want that brokeness back.

Melee fox is definitely not broken. One grab and he's done. Meta Knight is broken. He has his own tier.

 

[Phan7om]

I know this thread talks about "Fox's" shine, which in that case keep it like Brawl's but make it jump cancelable, same with Wolf. I really want to see a big change in FALCO's shine... this thread is called Shine afterall, and I didnt really like Falco's Brawl shine. I want it to be like it was in Melee, just with longer startup time, like Brawl Fox's.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Since Shine for Falco may never see its Melee days again, I would be fine with Falco not having a reflector at all and just be a aesthetic feature like Falcons gun.

 

[redxparasite]

Being a primarily Melee player, I personally dislike the changes made to Fox's shine in Brawl. I agree that the move is ridiculously good in Melee, but it got too nerfed in Brawl, along with the rest of Fox in general. If it were up to me, I'd make it jump cancelable again. Maybe it could be a frame 3 or 4 move, as opposed to frame 1. You could also take off the invincibility on startup. Brawl Fox just didn't feel quite as nimble. Fox will suffer in Smash 4 if he's not buffed from his Brawl iteration.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I hear Fox is quite good in Japan.

 

[redxparasite]

I hear Fox is quite good in Japan.

That may be the case, but I'm going off of what I feel as a player. Shine isn't completely useless in Brawl, but I don't have as much fun playing as Fox.

 

[Awaji66]

Shine does not need be as crazy as it was melee. Seriously don't want to see that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What kind of changes would you like to see made to Fox's shine (assuming wavedashing doesn't return).

It was so trash in Brawl so at this rate I'll take any improvement they give us lol.

Don't count on wavedashing coming back.

Brawl's one was nerfed for pretty good reasons. The hitbox and advantages it gave him in Melee were ridiculous.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I'd vote to make in frame one and jump-cancelable, but completely remove its ability to combo into the rest of his moveset and to gimp. I view it as the ultimate poke/get-off-me move; it shouldn't link into Fox's other options.

 

[Gabe Hartzog]

I'd vote to make in frame one and jump-cancelable, but completely remove its ability to combo into the rest of his moveset and to gimp. I view it as the ultimate poke/get-off-me move; it shouldn't link into Fox's other options.

Kind of more of a defensive thing right?

 

[IhaveSonar]

Kind of more of a defensive thing right?

Correct. It's ability to apply absurd pressure with ample followup opportunities in Melee has to be fixed. Assuming that it is jump-cancellable again.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Here we have it! Of course we can't tell how it works from the image, but still neat to see it.

 

["Shion"]

Same use and everything, just with a more of a spike when shined in air.

 

[Camsterchief]

What kind of changes would you like to see made to Fox's shine (assuming wavedashing doesn't return).

It was so trash in Brawl so at this rate I'll take any improvement they give us lol.

I found fox's shine extremely useful in Brawl. Honestly it was one of my favorite moves.

I would like to see it stun more, so it leaves the same amount of combo opportunities as a jump cancel. but that seems op

 

[Knight Dude]

Give it a slightly bigger hitbox than the Brawl version. And throw in Jump cancels too, if it won't make him too overpowered. I'm more interested in improving the Fox Fire.

 

[extremechiton]

I'm more interested in improving the Fox Fire.

yeah... like the fire fox needs hitboxes as soon as the flames start coming out, not 25 frames later. it would make for a better combo finisher, combo continuer, and possibly an easier way to recover.

 

[Une]

You know that the frame of invinc. on Melee Fox's/Falco shine didn't do anything right you hit people because it's instant not because of the 1 invinc.

Also even if Fox's shine was the same as it was in Melee in Brawl it still wouldn't even be that good lol besides for mashing to get out of certain "combos" or defense which would still be pretty good yeah but you get my point
Same goes for Falco. At least his Brawl reflector had range and could trip if he had his Melee shine he wouldn't able to combo or pressure with it since it's Brawl just use it for defense which would be once again still good so maybe that would make it still better I dunno

 

[Jet3000]

Fox doesn't need jump cancel. You can jump out of shine in brawl, it's called ''Shine hopping''. When a projectile hits fox shine, you have a few options you can do during shine: short hop, spotdodge, or roll.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I don't mind if it's just like melee minus invincibility. (I dont use fox) You can't wavedash or L cancel so it loses a lot of it's power just form that. The shine is great as a spike, but the only reason it's OP is because of WD and L canceling. If you told a fox to not L cancel or WD in Melee shine would never hit you on the stage.

 

[Awaji66]

Shine never hit you on stage in Melee? Uh, it starts and hits on the first(1 )frame...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I was thinking that they should remove fixed knockback and make the shine Dash Cancelable

I honestly believe that this is a great way to get the benefit of a pseudo waveshine for Melee fans as well as providing pseudo jump cancel. At low percents you can do things like SH Dair > Dash Cancel > U-smash or Grab at lower percentages.

Shine pressure? You can still do it, you would just have to space better like spacing your Nair > Shine where you will be able to dash, short hop then aerial again. the new jc shine would basically be Shine>Dash>Jump

With this you would still be able to do multishine, an easier repeated waveshine at low percents, thunders combo or even shine grab (dash grab assuming jc grabs are out)

New techs? Shine pivot grab and shine illusion, which could be good at high percent chases since the shine doesn't have fixed knockback or a solid cop out after shield pressure.

The nerfs would be that you can't jump cancel the shine off stage, meaning you have to commit to a shine spike and potentially get gimped back since ledge mechanics have changed in smash 4.

Anyone think this is good?

 

[Empyrean]

I was thinking that they should remove fixed knockback and make the shine Dash Cancelable

I honestly believe that this is a great way to get the benefit of a pseudo waveshine for Melee fans as well as providing pseudo jump cancel. At low percents you can do things like SH Dair > Dash Cancel > U-smash or Grab at lower percentages.

Shine pressure? You can still do it, you would just have to space better like spacing your Nair > Shine where you will be able to dash, short hop then aerial again. the new jc shine would basically be Shine>Dash>Jump

With this you would still be able to do multishine, an easier repeated waveshine at low percents, thunders combo or even shine grab (dash grab assuming jc grabs are out)

New techs? Shine pivot grab and shine illusion, which could be good at high percent chases since the shine doesn't have fixed knockback or a solid cop out after shield pressure.

The nerfs would be that you can't jump cancel the shine off stage, meaning you have to commit to a shine spike and potentially get gimped back since ledge mechanics have changed in smash 4.

Anyone think this is good?

I support this. It really is a great alternative to JC-ing shine, and it would also be less demanding on people's hands (input-wise). Now if only you could tell Sakurai about this..

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Shine never hit you on stage in Melee? Uh, it starts and hits on the first(1 )frame...

Uh, so? It barely does any damage. What's wrong with it coming out on 1 frame if you can't use it to combo? It's just a really quick move. I'd still like it to be a decent part of his game as long as it's not OP. The only reason the 1 frame even matters is because Fox players L cancel an aerial into it. 1 frame shine + 10 frames of landing lag = required 11 frames of hitstun to combo into. And no, I never get hit by Shine on the ground by fox players who can't L cancel (which will be all fox players in Smash 4) because they just get shield grabbed. When I notice a Fox player can't L cancel with any real consistency I just tell myself to make shield grabbing my main strategy and it works.

 

[Awaji66]

Uh, so? It barely does any damage. What's wrong with it coming out on 1 frame if you can't use it to combo? It's just a really quick move. I'd still like it to be a decent part of his game as long as it's not OP. The only reason the 1 frame even matters is because Fox players L cancel an aerial into it. 1 frame shine + 10 frames of landing lag = required 11 frames of hitstun to combo into. And no, I never get hit by Shine on the ground by fox players who can't L cancel (which will be all fox players in Smash 4) because they just get shield grabbed. In Brawl I shield grab Fox all the time and he doesn't nail shine even though it comes out in one frame.

\

1 frame is pretty much the fastest attack you can have in the game. That's quicker than even the fastest jabs. I believe in Brawl it hits on frame 2 and even that's pretty quick. That's more reasonable than having it hit on 1.

 

[Jackson]

I was never a Melee player myself, but watching other people play online, the shine seemed so hard to deal with. I rather it stay as the Brawl incarnation.

 

[Zekk]

Foxes shine could take some different directions like for example when you successfully hit some one with a shine there next attack does like 3/4s of the damage or just more hit stun or something make it give like a status effect for like 3 seconds