Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do you have any examples in mind for a faux pixel art style? I'm genuinely having trouble imagining how that would work.

I love the 2DHD style Sqaure's been doing for some of their games, but I definitely wouldn't want Smash Bros. to look like that.

Otherwise, all my mind jumps to are actual classic sprite-based fighting games. I'd actually take a sprite-based Smash that looks like Street Fighter Alpha games or the III series, but I don't think most people would take to it very well.

I suppose it's more a technique than an art style, but I'm referring to a 3D game that looks like its a pixel art game. Off the top of my head, Dead Cells is the only game that I know of that does this. I wouldn't say it should look like Dead Cells specifically, but the game looking like it was made with pixel art could lead to a pretty cool art style.

As for what kind of look they should aim for using this technique...I don't actually know.

EDIT: Technically Shovel Knight is also a 3D game, but as far as I know it still uses sprites, just arranging them on a 3D plane. It's why it's compatible with the 3Ds's 3D feature.

EDIT EDIT: Also not talking about Octopath Traveler, which is basically Paper Mario, but with sprite work instead of paper.

 

[ScrubReborn]

While I'd be fine with sticking to Ultimate's style (it's the best of all worlds, they nailed that ****), I'm glad more people are waking up to how peak Brawl's artstyle was.

Whatever artstyle they go with for Smash 6 though, they gotta try to finally include battle damage fr. (For more characters than just Mac before you try to be funny)

You can't just drop an idea this cool forever man.

 

[Zerp]

Unrelated to the current artstyle discussion but all this talk about universal changes got me thinking. What mechanics would you all want to return/remove in the next Smash? As for me, my thoughts are like this:

L-Cancelling: I personally love l-cancelling and think it's awesome. However, I don't think it's a good fit for Smash's design philosophy. Like, it's satisfying and all, but it also adds another input execution barrier for new players. No mistake why this one got cut, I wouldn't bring it back.

Crouch Cancelling: This one's in every game, but I personally prefer how it's implemented in Melee over the others. It adds a nice defensive option, but nothing that really messes with the game's pace. Can see why they adjusted it given it adds another big option to think about and Smash is supposed to be as accessible as possible. But eh, I don't think it's hard at all to use or deal with, doubt it'd be a problem.

Light Shielding: I don't think this one has an official name, but basically in Melee you can adjust how "solid" your shield is with the analog triggers. Anyway, I can't even bring this one back if I wanted to do so. It wouldn't really work with digital triggers on modern controllers and you'd need to dedicate a different button for it. Not ever gonna happen lol.

Wavedashing: Okay yeah yeah, I know, this one isn't really a mechanic, it's an exploit. Buuuuuuttt, it gets reimplemented in other platfighters as one, so I'll count it as one. Anyway, I think I'd like to see this come back. Accessibility is definitely a concern, but the input buffer would make it easier. And, we can just do what Rivals of Aether does and make the input easy for newcomers. So somewhat surprisingly I don't think it'd really be an issue?

Random Tripping: It's really funny, but definitely bad for the game. Wouldn't be opposed to it being a special smash option you can toggle on though or something.

Rage: 4's rendition of this was utterly horrific, Ult's toned down one is.... good actually! It's not ridiculous at all nor does it truly serve as a big comeback factor, but it also adds additional depth to kill percents and the like. I'm a fan of this, as long as it isn't like Smash 4 lol.

Ledge Trumping: I'm conflicted on this one, I'm personally more of a fan of edgehogging being a thing, but I totally get why they introduced trumping. Could go either way on this one really.

The Input Buffer: It's basically a staple of modern gaming and massively helps with accessibility. However, it can also be a bit overbearing. So, what I'd want here would be the best of both worlds, have there be an option to adjust it when picking a name. Like, you'd go to the name screen and you'd be able to set how many frames long your buffer would be, from 0 to 9, with the default being 9.

Edit: I put one sentence in the wrong section by accident earlier, my b lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Rage: 4's rendition of this was utterly horrific, Ult's toned down one is.... good actually! It's not ridiculous at all nor does it truly serve as a big comeback factor, but it also adds additional depth to kill percents and the like. I'm a fan of this, as long as it isn't like Smash 4 lol.

One tweak I would make would be so that it doesn't affect combo moves, or at least, doesn't affect launch power for them so it can't break combos, but this is probably a minor thing that mostly applies to high execution characters.

Ledge Trumping: I'm conflicted on this one, I'm personally more of a fan of edgehogging being a thing, but I totally get why they introduced trumping. Could go either way on this one really.

I personally prefer ledge trumping, but think it should get some tweaks so it's actually a good option. I never actually see it used on purpose in competitive play like I do ledge hogging. I think the best way to do this is by making the player who grabs the ledge second get trumped, and give them options while getting trumped to attempt to not get back air'ed to death. Either that or make it so that buffering a ledge option doesn't negate trump. I don't know exactly.

I'll also add DACUS: This technique seems pretty interesting, and I'd like to see what it would look like if it was applied intentionally.

 

[DarthEnderX]

At this point I'm genuinely more curious as to how you haven't gotten tired of seeing the same 12ish people posting the same lists of their most wanted in this thread.

I don't know what you mean.

What would you like the asthetic of the next game to be like?

Colorful 2D cel-shading.

Like old school box art.

A lot of people bring up the idea of a cel-shaded look, but I don't think that would work well in practice. Character designs that are little more grounded like Snake and the Belmonts would likely suffer from a choice like that.

Oh yeah, Castlevania characters sure look terrible when cel-shaded.

I'm ready to see Mario's indigo-wash raw denim overalls again. Peach with realistic, luscious blonde locks. Every single hair modeled on Snake's beard. Cracks and scratches modeled on every single piece of steel or metal.

Ugh, gross. Smash Bros. trying to Street Fighter 6-ify half of the Smash roster is one of the worst things I could imagine.

I genuinely do think a faux pixel art style would be a great fit for the series. It's just a question of whether or not they can pull it off.

If fan games like Smash Flash 2 can do it, Nintendo can do it.

Do you have any examples in mind for a faux pixel art style?

Super Smash Flash 2 All Final Smashes 1080p 60 FPS

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[superprincess]

Unrelated to the current artstyle discussion but all this talk about universal changes got me thinking. What mechanics would you all want to return/remove in the next Smash? As for me, my thoughts are like this:

L-Cancelling: I personally love l-cancelling and think it's awesome. However, I don't think it's a good fit for Smash's design philosophy. Like, it's satisfying and all, but it also adds another input execution barrier for new players. No mistake why this one got cut, I wouldn't bring it back.

Crouch Cancelling: This one's in every game, but I personally prefer how it's implemented in Melee over the others. It adds a nice defensive option, but nothing that really messes with the game's pace. Can see why they adjusted it given it adds another big option to think about and Smash is supposed to be as accessible as possible. But eh, I don't think it's hard at all to use or deal with, doubt it'd be a problem.

Light Shielding: I don't think this one has an official name, but basically in Melee you can adjust how "solid" your shield is with the analog triggers. Anyway, I can't even bring this one back if I wanted to do so. It wouldn't really work with digital triggers on modern controllers and you'd need to dedicate a different button for it. Not ever gonna happen lol.

Wavedashing: Okay yeah yeah, I know, this one isn't really a mechanic, it's an exploit. Buuuuuuttt, it gets reimplemented in other platfighters as one, so I'll count it as one. Anyway, I think I'd like to see this come back. Accessibility is definitely a concern, but the input buffer would make it easier. And, we can just do what Rivals of Aether does and make the input easy for newcomers. So somewhat surprisingly I don't think it'd really be an issue?

Random Tripping: It's really funny, but definitely bad for the game. Wouldn't be opposed to it being a special smash option you can toggle on though or something.

Rage: 4's rendition of this was utterly horrific, Ult's toned down one is.... good actually! It's not ridiculous at all nor does it truly serve as a big comeback factor, but it also adds additional depth to kill percents and the like. I'm a fan of this, as long as it isn't like Smash 4 lol.

Ledge Trumping: I'm conflicted on this one, I'm personally more of a fan of edgehogging being a thing, but I totally get why they introduced trumping. Could go either way on this one really.

The Input Buffer: It's basically a staple of modern gaming and massively helps with accessibility. However, it can also be a bit overbearing. So, what I'd want here would be the best of both worlds, have there be an option to adjust it when picking a name. Like, you'd go to the name screen and you'd be able to set how many frames long your buffer would be, from 0 to 9, with the default being 9.

Edit: I put one sentence in the wrong section by accident earlier, my b lol

Love this topic. It's one that gets brushed off quite a lot, giving credence to the stereotype that Smash fans don't play games, including their own.

As someone who does take issue with a lot of the changes Ultimate made to the general gameplay, I have quite a few changes I'd like to make.

• MICROSPACING: Smash Bros needs some sort of microspacing option. It doesn't have to be wavedashing, it could be perfect pivoting, it could even be a new option to act out of a dash while maintaining momentum and controlling distance. Ideally, it would be wavedashing since that also doubles as an option to play around platforms with stuff like edge canceling, so it's (maybe indirectly) adding even more depth to the game.
• MOMENTUM CHANGES: The option to conserve momentum from a dash into a jump. No idea why Smash doesn't do this already, but it's very awkward and clunky to jump out of a dash and feel like you're suddenly underwater. It's just not intuitive. I would also make it so that dash momentum is conserved into a crouch, so you can run up and down tilt while still moving.
• DASH ATTACK-CANCELED SMASHES. Yes, not just Up Smash, Smashes in general. Sliding with strong moves would just be fun.
• SOFT-PLATFORM CHANGES: Fix the awful sticky platforms. Allow for shield drops again, as well as the aforementioned edge canceling and wavelanding. Also, dashing off any platform will not stop you at the edge, you will instead leave the ground as intended. I'd also decrease traction across the board to buff wavedashing/landing & the sole good mechanic that Ult introduced (attacking out of dash). This way, platforms will feel more like a useful tool rather than a hazard you actively have to avoid.
• COMBOS: Increase hitstun and DI ranges for more varied and true combos. Tone down the speed and distance of "balloon" knockback for weaker moves at earlier percentages to allow for more true combos. Instead of relying on bread and butters, characters would be able to string moves into each other with more creativity.
• COMBO COUNTER: I'd accompany the above change with a combo counter near the players' UI that counts the amount of hits in a combo, starting from 2 hits and going up (e.g. combo x3, x4, x5, etc). Extra damage would be dealt if you successfully string more than 3 different moves into each other. This would only count true combos, it wouldn't apply for jabs/multihits to prevent abusing those moves, and the extra damage would scale with the more moves you string together.
• SHIELD CHANGES: Perhaps controversially, I'd remove shield pokes. There's just no reason for them to exist, as they're mostly random. Shields no longer shrink, they slowly crack as they're damaged/held. To prevent them from being too strong, shields are now less durable. Being pushed off the ledge while shielding would now send you into tumble like in pre-Ultimate games.
• AIR DODGE CHANGES: Directional air dodges do not have the "slingshotting" motion that they do in Ultimate, instead they immediately give the user a push of speedy momentum towards the desired direction. The user will be momentarily unaffected by gravity during them. Landing with a directional air dodge during the action triggers less landing lag to allow for wavedashing/landing. To balance this out, directional air dodges have less invincibility now. Landing with a directional air dodge during the endlag or landing with a normal air dodge will trigger more landing lag and be punishable.
• 2-FRAMING: Another controversial change, but I'd completely remove 2-framing. Stop being a coward, get off the stage and edgeguard your opponent. Camping near the ledge to hopefully catch their 2-frame window of vulnerability is cheap and oftentimes completely random.
• BODY BLOCKING/JOSTLING: "Body blocking" should be completely removed. It's one of the jankiest mechanics in Smash history and contributes to Ultimate's boring "goats ramming into each other in a straight line" gameplay. Characters should be able to freely run through each other, allowing for cross-ups once again. To prevent this from being an indirect buff to the already good smaller/speedier characters, this mechanic now takes into consideration a character's weight, size, along with speed. So Bowser or Ridley can run through most of the cast, while Pikachu or Sheik would get body-blocked by the big bodies. Even the slow Ganondorf would be able to push through lighter characters, but they'd have a harder time crossing him up.
• EDGEGUARDING/LEDGE CHANGES: Either nerf recoveries or shrink the ledge-grabbing sweetspots. Recovering is just too easy in this game. I won't say bring back edgehogging, as that mechanic is way too cruel to casual players and encourages the degenerate tactic of just sitting by the ledge and waiting for your opponent... but ledge trumping is just way too easy on both players.
• FASTFALL OUT OF AERIALS: Characters can now fastfall after successfully landing an aerial at any point. Such a cool mechanic from Rivals of Aether.
• ITEM GRABBING: Being able to grab items with... the grab button. No idea why this isn't a thing already, it even works in midair.
• PARRY CHANGES: Parrying now applies a momentary buff to the defender's dash speed, so if you parry a projectile or a disjointed attack, you can quickly run in and punish your opponent. I'd also give just a slight buff to the the window to counterattack, it seems too short sometimes and you can even get punished out of your own parry's endlag...
• BUFFER SYSTEM CHANGES: The normal buffer returns to 8 frames. Hold buffer now only registers if you hold the button until one frame before your first actionable frame. It can now be turned off in the options. The order of priority is completely removed, the game will now register your latest input no matter what. Hopefully input delay can be decreased.
• AERIAL ATTACK CHANGES: Aerials that fail to land will have more landing lag, akin to the lag seen in SSB4. The minimal landing Ultimate introduced will now only apply to successful hits, so be mindful what moves you throw out.
• ATTACK CANCELING: The attack canceling that the FGC's have is now a universal mechanic, albeit toned down. You can cancel jabs into tilts, and tilts/aerials into jumps/double jumps respectively. Stronger moves like Smashes and Specials are non-cancelable, so you don't get busted stuff like Luigi jab -> Super Jump Punch.
• FIX THE C-STICK: C-Stick/Right Stick inputs should absolutely not be a macro for "Left Stick direction + Button". That's how you get stuff like misplaced aerials and shuffling around in midair when you don't mean to. As a Marth main, I'd love to regain my ability to... you know, play my character as intended. I wanna do stationary f-airs, or f-airs while moving backwards.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm kind of hoping they add in Masked Dedede as a costume for King Dedede. They should also add in Masked Dedede's theme.

 

[Oracle Link]

AS i sometimes do let me bring up an interesting disscusion related to zelda/ Kirby!
Ive not seen much support for these two:

Usually i rather see support for urbosa or Riju for some reason!
Let me explain why those two are the best choices out of their respective sets...
In fact its not for themselves but because they are GORONS and New Characters meaning like AOC Impa they fall into a neat middleground of old and new Zelda! They could pull from the hammer which is one of links most iconic items, the boulderbreaker, goronlink, the enemy gorons from tp and well themselves! There is so much potential there!

Gorons are not only the most unique race in zelda they are also the least repped Gerudos have a stage and a character, Zoras have a stage and even rito have atleast a theme But gorons have nothing! Seeing a new goron as a fighter and perhaps a biggoron stage would be amazing!

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Unrelated to the current artstyle discussion but all this talk about universal changes got me thinking. What mechanics would you all want to return/remove in the next Smash? As for me, my thoughts are like this:

L-Cancelling: I personally love l-cancelling and think it's awesome. However, I don't think it's a good fit for Smash's design philosophy. Like, it's satisfying and all, but it also adds another input execution barrier for new players. No mistake why this one got cut, I wouldn't bring it back.

Crouch Cancelling: This one's in every game, but I personally prefer how it's implemented in Melee over the others. It adds a nice defensive option, but nothing that really messes with the game's pace. Can see why they adjusted it given it adds another big option to think about and Smash is supposed to be as accessible as possible. But eh, I don't think it's hard at all to use or deal with, doubt it'd be a problem.

Light Shielding: I don't think this one has an official name, but basically in Melee you can adjust how "solid" your shield is with the analog triggers. Anyway, I can't even bring this one back if I wanted to do so. It wouldn't really work with digital triggers on modern controllers and you'd need to dedicate a different button for it. Not ever gonna happen lol.

Wavedashing: Okay yeah yeah, I know, this one isn't really a mechanic, it's an exploit. Buuuuuuttt, it gets reimplemented in other platfighters as one, so I'll count it as one. Anyway, I think I'd like to see this come back. Accessibility is definitely a concern, but the input buffer would make it easier. And, we can just do what Rivals of Aether does and make the input easy for newcomers. So somewhat surprisingly I don't think it'd really be an issue?

Random Tripping: It's really funny, but definitely bad for the game. Wouldn't be opposed to it being a special smash option you can toggle on though or something.

Rage: 4's rendition of this was utterly horrific, Ult's toned down one is.... good actually! It's not ridiculous at all nor does it truly serve as a big comeback factor, but it also adds additional depth to kill percents and the like. I'm a fan of this, as long as it isn't like Smash 4 lol.

Ledge Trumping: I'm conflicted on this one, I'm personally more of a fan of edgehogging being a thing, but I totally get why they introduced trumping. Could go either way on this one really.

The Input Buffer: It's basically a staple of modern gaming and massively helps with accessibility. However, it can also be a bit overbearing. So, what I'd want here would be the best of both worlds, have there be an option to adjust it when picking a name. Like, you'd go to the name screen and you'd be able to set how many frames long your buffer would be, from 0 to 9, with the default being 9.

Edit: I put one sentence in the wrong section by accident earlier, my b lol

Give momentum when transitioning to a jump, fix the ridiculous input buffer and sticky platforms, make cancels a universal mechanic. I would also say I'm not too fond of the universal easy short-hop as it is in Ultimate, part of the issue is due to the buffer system but I think having only one mechanic that allows for any form of microspacing is overcentralising and creates homogenity, combined with the sticky platforms, discourages uses of them heavily. I agree with what was said about platforms feeling too much like a hazard.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

COMBO COUNTER: I'd accompany the above change with a combo counter near the players' UI that counts the amount of hits in a combo, starting from 2 hits and going up (e.g. combo x3, x4, x5, etc). Extra damage would be dealt if you successfully string more than 3 different moves into each other. This would only count true combos, it wouldn't apply for jabs/multihits to prevent abusing those moves, and the extra damage would scale with the more moves you string together.

This is the literal opposite of what other fighting games do to prevent combos from making games too quick or for longer ones to get out of control.

 

[fogbadge]

in terms of art style i think they should Wind Waker it

 

[DarthEnderX]

in terms of art style i think they should Wind Waker it

Hmm...

...mmm...

...mmmm.

I mean, I'd like that everything would be cel-shaded. But I'm not sure that particular art style works for everyone. I'd prefer something a little more universal, like Project X Zone uses.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Even artistically I'm down for a round 2 of Ultimate. They really nailed the graphical style, it's pretty close to Melee in HD I think, and every fighter looks great.

Being such a large crossover, I don't think that Smash really has a lot of room to experiment with its graphical styles.

 

[superprincess]

This is the literal opposite of what other fighting games do to prevent combos from making games too quick or for longer ones to get out of control.

Because other fighting games have way more combo options. Smash really doesn't. Even with the proposed hitstun increase, it wouldn't even be in the Melee ranges so most characters wouldn't get more than 5 or 6 hits really. And it only counts true combos, those are rare in all Smash games anyway.

And we need to somehow incentivize players to engage with their opponents and not go for simple stray hits and then run away.

 

[Gengar84]

Love this topic. It's one that gets brushed off quite a lot, giving credence to the stereotype that Smash fans don't play games, including their own.

As someone who does take issue with a lot of the changes Ultimate made to the general gameplay, I have quite a few changes I'd like to make.

• MICROSPACING: Smash Bros needs some sort of microspacing option. It doesn't have to be wavedashing, it could be perfect pivoting, it could even be a new option to act out of a dash while maintaining momentum and controlling distance. Ideally, it would be wavedashing since that also doubles as an option to play around platforms with stuff like edge canceling, so it's (maybe indirectly) adding even more depth to the game.
• MOMENTUM CHANGES: The option to conserve momentum from a dash into a jump. No idea why Smash doesn't do this already, but it's very awkward and clunky to jump out of a dash and feel like you're suddenly underwater. It's just not intuitive. I would also make it so that dash momentum is conserved into a crouch, so you can run up and down tilt while still moving.
• DASH ATTACK-CANCELED SMASHES. Yes, not just Up Smash, Smashes in general. Sliding with strong moves would just be fun.
• SOFT-PLATFORM CHANGES: Fix the awful sticky platforms. Allow for shield drops again, as well as the aforementioned edge canceling and wavelanding. Also, dashing off any platform will not stop you at the edge, you will instead leave the ground as intended. I'd also decrease traction across the board to buff wavedashing/landing & the sole good mechanic that Ult introduced (attacking out of dash). This way, platforms will feel more like a useful tool rather than a hazard you actively have to avoid.
• COMBOS: Increase hitstun and DI ranges for more varied and true combos. Tone down the speed and distance of "balloon" knockback for weaker moves at earlier percentages to allow for more true combos. Instead of relying on bread and butters, characters would be able to string moves into each other with more creativity.
• COMBO COUNTER: I'd accompany the above change with a combo counter near the players' UI that counts the amount of hits in a combo, starting from 2 hits and going up (e.g. combo x3, x4, x5, etc). Extra damage would be dealt if you successfully string more than 3 different moves into each other. This would only count true combos, it wouldn't apply for jabs/multihits to prevent abusing those moves, and the extra damage would scale with the more moves you string together.
• SHIELD CHANGES: Perhaps controversially, I'd remove shield pokes. There's just no reason for them to exist, as they're mostly random. Shields no longer shrink, they slowly crack as they're damaged/held. To prevent them from being too strong, shields are now less durable. Being pushed off the ledge while shielding would now send you into tumble like in pre-Ultimate games.
• AIR DODGE CHANGES: Directional air dodges do not have the "slingshotting" motion that they do in Ultimate, instead they immediately give the user a push of speedy momentum towards the desired direction. The user will be momentarily unaffected by gravity during them. Landing with a directional air dodge during the action triggers less landing lag to allow for wavedashing/landing. To balance this out, directional air dodges have less invincibility now. Landing with a directional air dodge during the endlag or landing with a normal air dodge will trigger more landing lag and be punishable.
• 2-FRAMING: Another controversial change, but I'd completely remove 2-framing. Stop being a coward, get off the stage and edgeguard your opponent. Camping near the ledge to hopefully catch their 2-frame window of vulnerability is cheap and oftentimes completely random.
• BODY BLOCKING/JOSTLING: "Body blocking" should be completely removed. It's one of the jankiest mechanics in Smash history and contributes to Ultimate's boring "goats ramming into each other in a straight line" gameplay. Characters should be able to freely run through each other, allowing for cross-ups once again. To prevent this from being an indirect buff to the already good smaller/speedier characters, this mechanic now takes into consideration a character's weight, size, along with speed. So Bowser or Ridley can run through most of the cast, while Pikachu or Sheik would get body-blocked by the big bodies. Even the slow Ganondorf would be able to push through lighter characters, but they'd have a harder time crossing him up.
• EDGEGUARDING/LEDGE CHANGES: Either nerf recoveries or shrink the ledge-grabbing sweetspots. Recovering is just too easy in this game. I won't say bring back edgehogging, as that mechanic is way too cruel to casual players and encourages the degenerate tactic of just sitting by the ledge and waiting for your opponent... but ledge trumping is just way too easy on both players.
• FASTFALL OUT OF AERIALS: Characters can now fastfall after successfully landing an aerial at any point. Such a cool mechanic from Rivals of Aether.
• ITEM GRABBING: Being able to grab items with... the grab button. No idea why this isn't a thing already, it even works in midair.
• PARRY CHANGES: Parrying now applies a momentary buff to the defender's dash speed, so if you parry a projectile or a disjointed attack, you can quickly run in and punish your opponent. I'd also give just a slight buff to the the window to counterattack, it seems too short sometimes and you can even get punished out of your own parry's endlag...
• BUFFER SYSTEM CHANGES: The normal buffer returns to 8 frames. Hold buffer now only registers if you hold the button until one frame before your first actionable frame. It can now be turned off in the options. The order of priority is completely removed, the game will now register your latest input no matter what. Hopefully input delay can be decreased.
• AERIAL ATTACK CHANGES: Aerials that fail to land will have more landing lag, akin to the lag seen in SSB4. The minimal landing Ultimate introduced will now only apply to successful hits, so be mindful what moves you throw out.
• ATTACK CANCELING: The attack canceling that the FGC's have is now a universal mechanic, albeit toned down. You can cancel jabs into tilts, and tilts/aerials into jumps/double jumps respectively. Stronger moves like Smashes and Specials are non-cancelable, so you don't get busted stuff like Luigi jab -> Super Jump Punch.
• FIX THE C-STICK: C-Stick/Right Stick inputs should absolutely not be a macro for "Left Stick direction + Button". That's how you get stuff like misplaced aerials and shuffling around in midair when you don't mean to. As a Marth main, I'd love to regain my ability to... you know, play my character as intended. I wanna do stationary f-airs, or f-airs while moving backwards.

I’ve been playing Smash casually since Smash 64 but I’ve never really been skilled enough to learn any of the advanced mechanics like these. I just really enjoy playing at a base level even I can’t really compete at a high level. I do appreciate everything here for the people that are invested in learning all the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game. The only reason I don’t really talk much about it is because I wouldn’t know what I’m really talking about.

I just wanted to express that it’s not because I don’t play the game (I’ve literally invested thousands of hours into the series), just that I enjoy the game for the simplicity of the combat and all the advanced techniques kind of diminish that for me. Again, nothing against the many people who love that kind of thing. I think it’s a good thing to include for those that want to go that extra step and play at a high level. People like me can still have a ton of fun without having to learn anything too complicated.

There are a few tricks I did learn that were a ton of fun though. First, in Melee, Samus could extend her grapple beam by performing a certain button combination and you could even control its trajectory. I also loved cancelling out of Ganondorf’s aerial down special in Melee for extra recovery range. Snake’s sliding up smash in Brawl was really fun too. Those are more character specific techniques and not general combat mechanics but I did have fun with them.

 

[superprincess]

I’ve been playing Smash casually since Smash 64 but I’ve never really been skilled enough to learn any of the advanced mechanics like these. I just really enjoy playing at a base level even I can’t really compete at a high level. I do appreciate everything here for the people that are invested in learning all the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game. The only reason I don’t really talk much about it is because I wouldn’t know what I’m really talking about.

I just wanted to express that it’s not because I don’t play the game (I’ve literally invested thousands of hours into the series), just that I enjoy the game for the simplicity of the combat and all the advanced techniques kind of diminish that for me. Again, nothing against the many people who love that kind of thing. I think it’s a good thing to include for those that want to go that extra step and play at a high level. People like me can still have a ton of fun without having to learn anything too complicated.

Yeah that's totally valid, I'm not saying that casuals who don't care about advanced mechanics and options don't play the game, obviously they do (and at a larger rate than the rather niche competitive scene). I'm mostly talking about the people who exclusively want to talk characters, reveals, 3rd party companies, etc. I just get the vibe that they don't care about having varied options in gameplay, and not in the same way that you don't. There's such a big difference between "I'm a casual player so I don't really notice that stuff" and "I'm only in it for the hype so I intentionally brush that stuff off".

 

[ScrubReborn]

Unrelated to the current artstyle discussion but all this talk about universal changes got me thinking. What mechanics would you all want to return/remove in the next Smash? As for me, my thoughts are like this

REMOVE

• Hitstun cancelling: One of the biggest sins in the Smash church. People who take issues with the state of combos say we need to raise hitstun, but the hitstun's been the same in every game since Melee. Hitstun cancelling is the secret problem, it actively punishes you for playing the game. It's been in three games, and three too many. Send it to the **** can with L-Cancelling please. Both of these mechanics are worse than random tripping. And I hate random tripping but at least it isn't something you deal with 24/7.

MODIFY

• Ledges: I actually kinda like how ledges work now. They're not perfect though. I feel like they skew too much in favor of the person recovering. I'd change it so whoever spent the most time in the air in the past idk, 30 seconds or so is the one taken off the ledge (which should usually be the guy recovering). Not sure if this is practical though. I'd also remove two framing also so it doesn't get too lopsided in favor of the edgeguarder.
• Ult's buffer system: I used to not have a problem with Ultimate's system. Then I downloaded a altered input buffer mod. WOW what a difference.
• Shields: Someone suggested this before me years ago but I'd like to see the devs experiment with giving different characters different shield health. Feel like it'd make defense a lot more interesting
• Parry: Lower the input window to three frames down from five. Too much accidental parrying man. To compensate, there's less lag so you can actually counter moves better. Also let it reflect projectiles again.
• Tether: If it hits a ledge, it works normally. If it hits a wall, you get a wall grapple. You can air grapple multiple times, though it'll get weaker each time until you land. You can also manually reel yourself a bit closer/farther from the wall by pressing the appropriate button, hell, if you manage to latch onto a ceiling, you can even kinda swing yourself back and forth if you have monumentum.
• Footstool: I love how it works, just don't love how easy it is to misinput. Project M mapping footstools to the taunt button was one of the best decisions in Smash history.
• DI: Raise the DI range up to about 21 (a little higher than Melee/Brawl), I think that'd help further to make combos less static for the comboer and also give the victim more routes to escape.

READD

• Pivoting: They removed this apparently. IDK why
• More momentum conserved after dash: Self-explanatory, movement feels so much less natural because of this
• DACUS and shield platform drop: Not much to add here, it'd just be neat
• Wavedash/air dash; the only real problem was how relatively difficult it was to do. Give it a short hop buffer ala short hopped aerials that travels about 20% less distance and that should solve a lot of the issues. Maybe map it to a seperate button too. Worth testing out for at least one game I think.

 

[AreJay25]

• Pivot grabs. They removed this? Why man

Pivot grabs are still in the game. It's just that body blocking practically renders them useless in most scenarios since they were mainly used as a mixup after running through an opponent's shield.

Speaking of which... yeah get rid of body blocking. I understand what they were going for, trying to make Ultimate more like a traditional fighting game, but it just simply does not work, man. For one, in a game where tons of stuff is just safe to throw out, it basically nullified an escape option against strong shield pressure that was provided to you in previous games, and two, it's poorly programmed and leads to some of the most jank interactions that I've ever seen in this series. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to punish someone with a grab just to watch it whiff entirely because the game decided they were going to get pushed 2 centimeters away after the simple act of running into them.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

L-cancelling is one of those mechanics you can argue is just there as an execution barrier. It doesn't really make the game deeper or more complex, because there's never a situation where it's not advantageous to L-cancel. I think those aren't necessarily an issue depending on how they're implemented, because sometimes execution barriers can be important for learning, but l-cancels in Melee are definitely not ideal. Hitstun cancelling is I think in a similar boat.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Pivot grabs are still in the game. It's just that body blocking practically renders them useless in most scenarios since they were mainly used as a mixup after running through an opponent's shield.

Speaking of which... yeah get rid of body blocking. I understand what they were going for, trying to make Ultimate more like a traditional fighting game, but it just simply does not work, man. For one, in a game where tons of stuff is just safe to throw out, it basically nullified an escape option against strong shield pressure that was provided to you in previous games, and two, it's poorly programmed and leads to some of the most jank interactions that I've ever seen in this series. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to punish someone with a grab just to watch it whiff entirely because the game decided they were going to get pushed 2 centimeters away after the simple act of running into them.

I actually meant to put general pivoting there lol. I just mixed the mechanics up.

 

[AreJay25]

I actually meant to put general pivoting there lol. I just mixed the mechanics up.

Oh. In that case I agree lol. I miss perfect pivots and think they would have added a lot to the game mechanically.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

SHIELD CHANGES: Perhaps controversially, I'd remove shield pokes. There's just no reason for them to exist, as they're mostly random. Shields no longer shrink, they slowly crack as they're damaged/held. To prevent them from being too strong, shields are now less durable. Being pushed off the ledge while shielding would now send you into tumble like in pre-Ultimate games.

Even before Combo Devils, I've wanted to see Super Smash Bros. use a directional shield system like the one in Combo Devils. It protects you entirely, which I think is necessary for casual gameplay, but you still have to guard against attacks coming from different directions so your shield doesn't break super quick.

MOMENTUM CHANGES: The option to conserve momentum from a dash into a jump. No idea why Smash doesn't do this already, but it's very awkward and clunky to jump out of a dash and feel like you're suddenly underwater. It's just not intuitive. I would also make it so that dash momentum is conserved into a crouch, so you can run up and down tilt while still moving.

I think they just don't want fast characters to rocket themselves across the screen with an aerial. A good compromise could be to keep all momentum going into a jump, but diminish that momentum throughout the jump at a character specific rate. EX: Sonic would decelerate rather quickly because his dash speed is so fast, and he's got other options for yeeting himself across the stage, Kirby would decelerate very slowly, if at all because his dash speed is mediocre, and his air speed is even slower, and Jigglypuff would actually accelerate because she's actually faster in the air. lol

PARRY CHANGES: Parrying now applies a momentary buff to the defender's dash speed, so if you parry a projectile or a disjointed attack, you can quickly run in and punish your opponent. I'd also give just a slight buff to the the window to counterattack, it seems too short sometimes and you can even get punished out of your own parry's endlag...

So it would buff the speed of your initial dash right after parrying? That sounds pretty cool. As long as it doesn't turn everyone into Mythra, I like that idea.

And yeah, Parry should actually allow you to counterattack things. It should be something you see as a big skill expression thing in competitive play, but as it is it's not worth doing, so pretty much all parries are accidental.

 

[chinkuru]

What would you like the asthetic of the next game to be like? for example Melee was creepy, Brawl was gritty, Smash 4 was generic HD.....

I would like a return to the origins, and see the characters with the puppet appearance of the Smash 64 arts

 

[Perkilator]

In terms of gameplay mechanics, all I really hope for is reduced air dodge endlag and a more in-depth meter than just the Final Smash meter.

 

[MasterCheef]

new mode = Tag Team , = can swap between 2 characters

Mini Games

8 Pool
7 Mini-Golf
6 Hot Potato
5 Volleyball
4 Maze Race w/ Portals
3 Obstacle races
2 Basketball & invincible characters
1 Soccer & invincible characters

WHY ? , attracting casuals , otherwise overwhelmed by regular game-play

Extra power Special meter = charges via ; dealing ( damage & knockback )

The Special moves get fixed so ;

Side special can be used in all 3 ( advantage , neutral & disadvantage )
Up special can be used in 2 ( advantage , & , disadvantage )
Neutral special can be used in 2 ( advantage & neutral )
Down special is to be used in advantage

Get their own buttons = Grab , & , Final Smash

• Ult's buffer system: I used to not have a problem with Ultimate's system. Then I downloaded a altered input buffer mod. WOW what a difference.
• Shields: Someone suggested this before me years ago but I'd like to see the devs experiment with giving different characters different shield health. Feel like it'd make defense a lot more interesting
• Parry: there's less lag so you can actually counter moves better.
• Tether: If it hits a ledge, it works normally. If it hits a wall, you get a wall grapple. You can air grapple multiple times, though it'll get weaker each time until you land. You can also manually reel yourself a bit closer/farther from the wall by pressing the appropriate button, hell, if you manage to latch onto a ceiling, you can even kinda swing yourself back and forth if you have momentum.
• Footstool: I love how it works, just don't love how easy it is to mis-input. Project M mapping footstools to the taunt button was one of the best decisions in Smash history.

These are all great ideas.

Ledges were changed to make it easier for beginners / casuals. i just want an option to switch to a more melee style for competitive

 

[Kirbeh]

In terms of gameplay mechanics, all I really hope for is reduced air dodge endlag and a more in-depth meter than just the Final Smash meter.

I'm of two minds when it comes to meter tbh.

I would personally like to have a resource to use for EX moves and potentially other techniques like other fighting games. It adds another layer of strategy and player expression.

On the other hand I can understand why Sakurai probably won't go that route given his inclination towards keeping things simple for casual players.

Rather, I worry that he'd try to find some halfway middle ground for meter that winds up like the current Final Smashes and Smash meter; still unusable in a competitive environment and not all that fun at a casual level. (The latter is more subjective but I think I see complaints about it frequently enough from players of all skill levels to think it could use some adjustments.)

It's hard to gauge honestly. It's very clear that Sakurai loves fighting games but I feel like he (and plenty of other devs) at times treat the casual player base a bit too softly.

The "We can't do "x" because a casual can't wrap their head around it." Or "The better player, will gain another advantage" sort of deal.

The former imo is selling the casual audience short. They can understand and engage with a few more mechanics even if they don't master them. And if they don't want to bother with them, they don't necessarily have to. The chaotic nature of multiplayer Smash allows less skilled players to gain advantage and win in lots of other ways. (Plus, he plays with casual unfriendly ideas pretty frequently already.)

Which ties into the latter. The more skilled players having more tools to work, doesn't change the fact that they were already better at the game. And more importantly, these two camps aren't generally playing with each other in the first place.

Still, Smash's as simple as possible controls and pick up and play nature could deter stuff like that anyway.

Again, hard to gauge given the series' history.

 

[Slime Scholar]

I’d love to see Smash attempt something new and bold with the art style but there’s probably a good reason they haven’t yet. It’s obvious that the series is very thoughtful in its presentation, and especially how it meets the need of unifying characters that, in their own series, have varying levels of detail.

A Fight Between Live Action and Animation [Graphics]

Some characters are realistic! Some characters are cartoony! Just throwing them all into a game as-is might not result in a cohesive visual style.

youtu.be

It’s a shame, really, because some fan efforts can look very striking, like this Pikachu mod based on the original Ken Sugimori watercolor art as an example.

This is great for something made with the limited tools available to modders, but it would be difficult to imagine a full game looking like this because it just doesn’t suit every character, or stage for that matter. Everything has to meet in the middle, aesthetically, and I think Ultimate did a good job of that, even if not everything comes together perfectly.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Otherwise, all my mind jumps to are actual classic sprite-based fighting games. I'd actually take a sprite-based Smash that looks like Street Fighter Alpha games or the III series, but I don't think most people would take to it very well.

The actual giga-brained concept hidden amongst this is making a tradfighter with Nintendo characters as some sort of "Smash spin-off" but we all know that'd never happen, as cool as it'd be

That said, SFIII-styled Smash would go unbelievably hard

Colorful 2D cel-shading.

Like old school box art.

View attachment 389063

I've never given this much thought before, but now you mention it, I think this would look amazing.

Though, I think as a part of it, Smash would probably need to slightly lean into "redesigning" the cast a little more - think akin to Brawl's design but more... well, fitting for this sort of thing, generally simplifying characters and making them more fitting for this kind of look. Obviously the same applies for stages - you couldn't just port in like, Lookout Landing as is for instance - you'd need to redesign them to fit with this artstyle.

That said - I do think this'd work fantastically if done well.

I’d love to see Smash attempt something new and bold with the art style but there’s probably a good reason they haven’t yet. It’s obvious that the series is very thoughtful in its presentation, and especially how it needs the need of unifying characters that, in their own series, have varying levels of detail.

A Fight Between Live Action and Animation [Graphics]

Some characters are realistic! Some characters are cartoony! Just throwing them all into a game as-is might not result in a cohesive visual style.

youtu.be

It’s a shame, really, because some fan efforts can look very striking, like this Pikachu mod based on the original Ken Sugimori watercolor art as an example.

This is great for something made with the limited tools available to modders, but it would be difficult to imagine a full game looking like this because it just doesn’t suit every character, or stage for that matter. Everything has to meet in the middle, aesthetically, and I think Ultimate did a good job of that, even if not everything comes together perfectly.

This is a good point too, to be fair.

...if you were to look for a midpoint in this kind of style, I'd suggest looking into a Shinkiro-esque artstyle.

 

[Gengar84]

The original Super Smash Bros. had a flat, 2D aesthetic for the box art and instruction manual art so, in a way, it’s kind of returning to its roots. I loved those classic artworks for the old NES and SNES Super Mario games so it would be cool to see Mario in that classic style again.

 

[SpecterFlower]

But the beat'em up genre have such big hit games that they're pretty hard to overlook. One could say that there's even been somewhat of a resurgence in the genre. Like you said, there's the River City Girls games (with the second game just got its latest DLC announced), a new Streets of Rage 4 was also revealed and some people even like to place Yakuza/Like a Dragon in the beat'em up genre and you know how big that series is. Sure, the genre may not be constantly pumping out games but the games they do pump out draws a lot of attention from fans.

Yakuza is a turn based rpg.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I'm of two minds when it comes to meter tbh.

I would personally like to have a resource to use for EX moves and potentially other techniques like other fighting games. It adds another layer of strategy and player expression.

On the other hand I can understand why Sakurai probably won't go that route given his inclination towards keeping things simple for casual players.

Rather, I worry that he'd try to find some halfway middle ground for meter that winds up like the current Final Smashes and Smash meter; still unusable in a competitive environment and not all that fun at a casual level. (The latter is more subjective but I think I see complaints about it frequently enough from players of all skill levels to think it could use some adjustments.)

It's hard to gauge honestly. It's very clear that Sakurai loves fighting games but I feel like he (and plenty of other devs) at times treat the casual player base a bit too softly.

The "We can't do "x" because a casual can't wrap their head around it." Or "The better player, will gain another advantage" sort of deal.

The former imo is selling the casual audience short. They can understand and engage with a few more mechanics even if they don't master them. And if they don't want to bother with them, they don't necessarily have to. The chaotic nature of multiplayer Smash allows less skilled players to gain advantage and win in lots of other ways. (Plus, he plays with casual unfriendly ideas pretty frequently already.)

Which ties into the latter. The more skilled players having more tools to work, doesn't change the fact that they were already better at the game. And more importantly, these two camps aren't generally playing with each other in the first place.

Still, Smash's as simple as possible controls and pick up and play nature could deter stuff like that anyway.

Again, hard to gauge given the series' history.

Yeah I've always thought the mindset that meter would be too complex for Smash was a bit much. Mortal Kombat is the best selling fighting game series and has huge casual appeal, and has had meter since MK9. Street Fighter 6, whose World Tour mode is almost aggressively beginner friendly, has meter. The thing about Smash is that it will always have huge casual appeal because it's a massive crossover featuring tons of iconic characters and has been established as an iconic brand with a long legacy in and of itself. In a similar manner to how Mortal Kombat will always have casual appeal because it has good graphics and cool characters and blood and a story mode, Smash I feel like has leeway to push itself a bit further, and meter is a very intuitive mechanic at the end of the day.

It makes sense it hasn't been added yet, because if there was any game that would have been in a position to make a change like that it would have been Smash 4, and that game was already kind of just undoing some of Brawl's changes or toning them down gameplay wise, but I think it would be a pretty logical next step for the series in terms of innovating the gameplay, especially with how the design of characters has changed and what the appeal of Smash is. The series has been slowly shifting back to a faster pace of gameplay with intense visual spectacle after all. If anything I think the major difficulty, beyond obviously having to rework every character to fit it and redesigning gimmicks like Robin's tomes and Cloud's limit, would just be figuring how to map it intuitively, since Smash has a heavy focus on only needing a few buttons to play.

The other logical next step would be air smash attacks, which I kind of expect to happen anyways if the next game has any big gameplay innovation.

 

[Oracle Link]

Did i hear Wind Waker?

Thats me BTW in my very own toon link costume took over a year to assemble! (i had help btw)
And im actually happy that the tunic is just long enough for that chibi look! i have just the right Arm/ Ler Length!

 

[Sucumbio]

Unrelated to the current artstyle discussion but all this talk about universal changes got me thinking. What mechanics would you all want to return/remove in the next Smash? As for me, my thoughts are like this:

L-Cancelling: I can't do it so I don't like it lol plus it makes fighting someone who CAN pretty much impossible. It's almost like a cheat code and makes an already difficult game harder.

Crouch Cancelling: I did this naturally from experience with down-back blocking like SF, MK, KI etc. so I usually use this.

Light Shielding: Didn't realize this was a thing lol. But yeah Shielding has enough governing its complexity as in timing when to release to achieve parry. Personally I'd prefer the perfect shield mechanic to return because I am more attuned to hitting shield exactly as an attack lands, vs releasing shield just after it's landed.

Wavedashing: I really don't like any mechanics that either enhance or otherwise change how a player can play. It's difficult already let alone trying to keep up with some insane buttons that not everyone can do. It makes more sense for a universal mechanic where a character enters a special phase allowing them to move in a wave dashing manner.

Random Tripping: dumb never again!

Rage: 4 was bad, Ultimate to me still needs to be tuned. There's probably 50 characters or so on this roster who lack kill power on their fastest moves so if their opponent is in rage, guess what you're not only NOT getting the KO, you're probably losing a stock in the process. I can't tell you how many times (literally hundreds by now) I'm up 2 stocks to 1 but because of rage I end up still losing. Crap mechanic all around.

Ledge Trumping: I got really good at ledge hogging but when it changed to trumping my skills didn't compensate and I very rarely get the right setup for a KO like trump-bair. I get why they did this and I don't disagree so it can stay and I'll be happy.

The Input Buffer: no comment

 

[superprincess]

The other logical next step would be air smash attacks, which I kind of expect to happen anyways if the next game has any big gameplay innovation.

It's a pretty well known fact by now that Sakurai considered chargeable aerials for Ultimate. I'm surprised this hasn't happened by now to be honest, it seems like a pretty natural evolution of the SSB formula.

 

[Kirbeh]

The other logical next step would be air smash attacks, which I kind of expect to happen anyways if the next game has any big gameplay innovation.

I'm actually quite curious on what Sakurai had in mind for air Smash attacks exactly. Personally, I actually don't want them, but that's largely part to not really seeing what they have to offer. I think spikes/meteors already fill the role of strong aerial attacks so I'm curious if he had any additional functionality/utility planned for them.

 

[Gengar84]

It's a pretty well known fact by now that Sakurai considered chargeable aerials for Ultimate. I'm surprised this hasn't happened by now to be honest, it seems like a pretty natural evolution of the SSB formula.

Do you expect that to be a universal change to all characters or do you think they’d keep it character specific to only a few characters like how only Terry has a back special?

 

[Louie G.]

I'm not saying anything too creative or new here, but I would still like to see how Smash handles air dashes. Maybe they'd feel its unnecessary with the retooled air dodge system, but with how crucial aerials are to Smash's gameplay already I feel like having a more reliable universal aerial approach option would shake up and speed up the gameplay in a very good way.

Perhaps it would do a good deal to keep zoners in check too, I guess depending on how it's implemented and what properties an air dash would have. Would characters have varying air dash lengths or speeds? I think I'd like to see them toy around with that, and I think it would have a valuable function at any level of play. Assuming it'd be as simple as double tapping in midair or something.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm not saying anything too creative or new here, but I would still like to see how Smash handles air dashes. Maybe they'd feel its unnecessary with the retooled air dodge system, but with how crucial aerials are to Smash's gameplay already I feel like having a more reliable universal aerial approach option would shake up and speed up the gameplay in a very good way.

Perhaps it would do a good deal to keep zoners in check too, I guess depending on how it's implemented and what properties an air dash would have. Would characters have varying air dash lengths or speeds? I think I'd like to see them toy around with that, and I think it would have a valuable function at any level of play. Assuming it'd be as simple as double tapping in midair or something.

I know this is character specific so it’s not really the same thing but I think retooling Samus’ moveset with the increased mobility from Dread could be cool. Samus was a lot of fun to control in that game and she had a fun air dash.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm not saying anything too creative or new here, but I would still like to see how Smash handles air dashes. Maybe they'd feel its unnecessary with the retooled air dodge system, but with how crucial aerials are to Smash's gameplay already I feel like having a more reliable universal aerial approach option would shake up and speed up the gameplay in a very good way.

Perhaps it would do a good deal to keep zoners in check too, I guess depending on how it's implemented and what properties an air dash would have. Would characters have varying air dash lengths or speeds? I think I'd like to see them toy around with that, and I think it would have a valuable function at any level of play. Assuming it'd be as simple as double tapping in midair or something.

It probably wouldn't happen/work for Smash, but I've always liked the idea of converting one of the extra shield buttons into a dedicated wave dash button, which would then function as an air dash when used in the air.

Just tie grounded wave dashing to a resource like how the shield is also limited. Then for the air version, you're limited to one air dash until you touch the ground again (kind of like how old air dodging resulted in freefall, just without the freefall penalty in this case.)

Even with the air dodging we have now, I think an air dash could still have a place. One is an evasive/defense tool with intangibility, the other would be a movement/offense tool with no intangibility. They'd serve as counterparts to complement each other and provide different enough functions.

And to briefly go back to wave dashing, just like how shielding too long results in it breaking, I feel like spamming wave dash and expending its resource would be the one exception to where I think tripping would be reasonable to include again. Plus, with the tripping no longer being random but a controllable element, maybe even that could have some utility in some way if used in certain situations.

Maybe tripping itself becomes an attack, albeit a weak one, that you can still try to use to stumble into opponents. It wouldn't be practical in most situations, but I think it'd be fun if it had at least some utility even if its general purpose is still to penalize you. People can be creative with seemingly useless moves, so just a thought I had.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yakuza is a turn based rpg.

Which Yakuza games are you talking about?