Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Shinuto]

If you want to insult me that's cool, but I just don't agree. Obviously it's hyperbole to attribute all of her popularity at the time to just Wayforward's actions, especially since she's still being asked for today. But they were absolutely fanning the flames themselves with cheeky "see you in Smash " tweets that sent some people into a frenzy. Who ends up being a popular request is often strongly influenced by who is perceived as likely or at least plausible and the community absolutely leaned into that (even though WF themselves were just goofing around).


I think that kind of thing contributes to characters becoming grandfathered into discussion. Mini-cultures develop around "getting them in" and they become disproportionately present in discussion compared to their actual merits as a character. See also: Geno.

The supports been there since the ballot and her getting new games increased it alongside her spirit reveal and mii costume reveal later.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's unfortunate. Men are allowing to be free in their clothing all the time in Gaming with people batting an eye and even glorifying it but when characters of women do like Bayo, Pythra or Shantae do in the tamest of wear, it's now a problem guised curbing sexism somehow

Here's the thing though...

You're phrasing this as though these characters are actually people, making these decisions, for themselves. But they aren't. They're made up characters. They do whatever their writer makes them to do. It's like, "Yeah, I wrote this character to be slutty, but it's okay, because she likes being slutty!" and it's like, well, yeah, because you wrote her to be like that.

The person who created Bayonetta is not themselves, Bayonetta. They're not representing themself. Bayonetta's creator is a horny dude who created a fake horny naked lady who loves being a horny naked lady. And that is supposed to somehow be 'empowering', despite the fact that the character itself, literally has no power. They are fictional. They are slaves to their writer's whims. They are exactly what their writer wants them to be. No more, no less. There is no Bayonetta choosing that she really loves doing sexy dances and making her clothes disappear. A guy wrote her to be that way.

This is, of course, much less of an issue when the character creator, in a way, IS representing themself. When said women characters are actually created by women creators.

 

[superprincess]

Pretty sure this was brought up a few pages ago but I really want SSB to bring back character selection screen animations. It just conveys the characters' personalities so much better than a single PNG. I understand it may not be possible with the current technology but if the next system is more powerful and the next game has less fighters, I really think it's worth going for.

Even if it's not possible, make the CSS more stylish in general. Hated how samey it was between SSB4 and Ultimate. It didn't do much to differentiate the game's tone and theming (which wasn't really that different, but still).

Here's the thing though...

You're phrasing this as though these characters are actually people, making these decisions, for themselves. But they aren't. They're made up characters. They do whatever their writer makes them to do. It's like, "Yeah, I wrote this character to be slutty, but it's okay, because she likes being slutty!" and it's like, well, yeah, because you wrote her to be like that.

The person who created Bayonetta is not themselves, Bayonetta. They're not representing themself. Bayonetta's creator is a horny dude who created a fake horny naked lady who loves being a horny naked lady. And that is supposed to somehow be 'empowering', despite the fact that the character itself, literally has no power. They are fictional. They are slaves to their writer's whims. They are exactly what their writer wants them to be. No more, no less. There is no Bayonetta choosing that she really loves doing sexy dances and making her clothes disappear. A guy wrote her to be that way.

This is, of course, much less of an issue when the character creator, in a way, IS representing themself. When said women characters are actually created by women creators.

Can we move on from this topic? No offense but y'all are a bunch of dudes arguing over what women should and shouldn't be allowed to be portrayed as in video games. These conversations are more valuable when actual women are in the equation, but there aren't any rn, so let's please shut this down? And also how can you argue Bayonetta's "sexy portrayal" isn't empowering when the source of her power is, in a way, her sexiness?

PS a character can be empowering to/representative of a group of people even if they weren't created by a person of said group.

 

[fogbadge]

PS a character can be empowering to/representative of a group of people even if they weren't created by a person of said group.

I always understood that it was because men were doing it, it was part of the problem.

 

[DarthEnderX]

And also how can you argue Bayonetta's "sexy portrayal" isn't empowering when the source of her power is, in a way, her sexiness?

...because it's fake? There's no real sexy dance magic that someone can see Bayonetta and go "Oh, I can apply this to myself to empower myself!" It's a made-up sexy power made up by some guy so that he'd have an excuse to make his character be sexy.

 

[superprincess]

...because it's fake? There's no real sexy dance magic that someone can see Bayonetta and go "Oh, I can apply this to myself to empower myself!" It's a made-up sexy power made up by some guy so that he'd have an excuse to make his character be sexy.

You really don't get it.

Bayonetta's clothes are made out of her hair. She uses her hair to summon demons. Resulting in her outfit becoming more and more revealing the more powerful her attacks are. Her nakedness is almost synonymous with her power. And that's cool. Because her sultry and seductive style is integrated very deep into her identity and her series as a whole.

Compare that to like, the countless weird Pyra/Mythra scenes in Xenoblade 2 or the zoom in on Camilla's chest in FE Fates. Those serve no purpose other than to be horny and weird. For no reason. The character is objectified and treated as a spectacle for a... specific crowd. Which makes people in real life who have those body parts really uncomfortable, trust.

And that's another thing. Bayo's outfit shrinking to summon demons is so out of the ordinary and unrealistic that it's almost comical. It's meant to be over the top. The weird FE and XB stuff is just... there. With no purpose or lore or explanation. Pyra could very well be flat chested and dressed "modestly" and nothing would change. For Bayo that's simply not the case.

 

[Perkilator]

God, I miss individual character support threads.

Anyway, I'm gonna say it: both Bandana Waddle Dee and Magolor should be in the next Smash. That's not to say anything of legitimate chances, I just really like them both.

 

[fogbadge]

You really don't get it.

Bayonetta's clothes are made out of her hair. She uses her hair to summon demons. Resulting in her outfit becoming more and more revealing the more powerful her attacks are. Her nakedness is almost synonymous with her power. And that's cool. Because her sultry and seductive style is integrated very deep into her identity and her series as a whole.

Compare that to like, the countless weird Pyra/Mythra scenes in Xenoblade 2 or the zoom in on Camilla's chest in FE Fates. Those serve no purpose other than to be horny and weird. For no reason. The character is objectified and treated as a spectacle for a... specific crowd. Which makes people in real life who have those body parts really uncomfortable, trust.

And that's another thing. Bayo's outfit shrinking to summon demons is so out of the ordinary and unrealistic that it's almost comical. It's meant to be over the top. The weird FE and XB stuff is just... there. With no purpose or lore or explanation. Pyra could very well be flat chested and dressed "modestly" and nothing would change. For Bayo that's simply not the case.

what about the sexualisation in platinums other games? you know the ones where there is no reason

 

[DarthEnderX]

Bayonetta's clothes are made out of her hair. She uses her hair to summon demons. Resulting in her outfit becoming more and more revealing the more powerful her attacks are. Her nakedness is almost synonymous with her power. And that's cool. Because her sultry and seductive style is integrated very deep into her identity and her series as a whole.

But none of that is real! It's not empowering because there's no ACTUAL power there! When real women do naked stripper dances, they don't get magic powers!

 

[superprincess]

But none of that is real! It's not empowering because there's no ACTUAL power there! When real women do naked stripper dances, they don't get magic powers!

This is a very stupid non-argument because I'm obviously not saying doing a sexy dance irl can give you powers. It's empowering to Bayonetta's character. She's given power through it. You know, empowering.

This is a tired and repetitive argument and as I already said there's no point in talking about this here especially with men, so Next!

---

Anyways, I came across a video on the evolution of victory screens in SSB and realized that a lot of them (especially for the earlier characters) were kinda lame lol. Ultimate kinda remedied this, they went back and changed a few of them like Peach, Zelda, and Marth's but they're still not as spectacular and in character as I'd like tbh. I also hate the shortened taunts in Ultimate. So what are some aesthetic/non-attack changes you'd like to see in the next Smash? Can be anything from a taunt, idle, victory animation, voice line, anything that doesn't impact gameplay.

 

[Oracle Link]

I missed another zelda disscusion oh god no?!
So to fix that im gonna dump my zelda thoughts again!

Spoiler: Zelda smash thought

]So The Zelda cast is pretty overstuffed with links and zeldas i think you can easily cut Sheik and Younglink!
Adult Link (Champion), Toon Link, Zelda And Ganondorf are like the main 4 that should always be focused on!
Saying Champion link is enough link rep is pretty dumb but adding the polar opposite toon link perfectly balances things out!
(if i was biased it would be "Toy" link)

If you wanna bring up the Shared Moveset argument than the one to recieve a full revamp should be Champion/ Adult Link NOT Toon link as toon links moveset is almost perfect and reps all of his apearences pretty decently Making him windwaker link only is a dumb choice!

Zelda Could also get half a revamp i think her spells and phantoms COULD be kept But she really needs the lightbow (perhaps even for her normals)

Ganondorf NEEDS a new moveset i wouldnt make him just totk based as ganon should stay his final smash! You could use dark beast ganon for that although having 2d Pig Ganon would be a fun albeit weird choice! I think his Demon king form would be great as an alt giving us atleast one other g dorf look!

Young link is straight up a more boring (less reapering) choice as toon link so cutting him is easy! I also think toon link could be slightly altered to count more as 2d zelda rep as he appeared in a lot of 2d zeldas! you cant really do that with young link!

Sheik is sadly controversial to cut at the time of meeles release she was popular and relevant but its been years since oot and shes now only popular for apearences OUTSIDE of mainline zelda! Also at the time impa had one in game apearence but now Impa Apeared so much more and isnt another zelda AND could have a similar and better moveset!

Speaking of impa she should definitly be a character like 100% Give her a new but similar to sheik feeling moveset that incorporates stuff from the actual zelda games and give her a sheikah dagger (i think she had one in aoc) that way the playstyle of Sheik stays alive but is improved in literally every way!

And you could add one more character easily if the next smash doesnt have less characters than ultimate!
I personally would go for Midna, Skulkid or a goron!

Also you could do costumes (like Sheik, classic adult link, another zelda and toy link) Although i donmt know if costumes from diffrent versions of link and zelda are even allowed as it never happend in smash before! Maybe nintendo declared that forbidden![/SPOILER

 

[BritishGuy54]

We’re talking about fanservice and sexualisation again? What hasn’t been said already…

Some people like the character themselves. Some people like the assets of the character. Some people like both.

It’s complicated, and deserves more of its own thread. Different games just have different audiences, and different focuses. And I’d like to move on from this topic.

 

[Oracle Link]

This is a very stupid non-argument because I'm obviously not saying doing a sexy dance irl can give you powers. It's empowering to Bayonetta's character. She's given power through it. You know, empowering.

This is a tired and repetitive argument and as I already said there's no point in talking about this here especially with men, so Next!

---

Anyways, I came across a video on the evolution of victory screens in SSB and realized that a lot of them (especially for the earlier characters) were kinda lame lol. Ultimate kinda remedied this, they went back and changed a few of them like Peach, Zelda, and Marth's but they're still not as spectacular and in character as I'd like tbh. I also hate the shortened taunts in Ultimate. So what are some aesthetic/non-attack changes you'd like to see in the next Smash? Can be anything from a taunt, idle, victory animation, voice line, anything that doesn't impact gameplay.

If Sheik gets kept atleast have her use her harp in victory screens and taunts!

Have a taunt for ganondorf were a little Enemy gets summoned by him and does a pose!

Cloud should shrug either as a taunt (replacing the leaning on sword one) or as an idle!

Give Toon Link a Spirit tracks Toggle Were he keeps his normal tunic but gets the lokomo Sword, his shield from that game plus the diffrent voice!

Return marios Growth taunt that was amazing!

 

[fogbadge]

This entire conversation made it sound like sexism is something you can just turn on and off

 

[Greenhorne Ethan]

I think a couple of factors of Shantae's sexualization I haven't seen addressed are both how it plays into orientalism (basically fetishization of the culture she's based on) and her ambiguously young age (I believe one of the writers for the series said he wrote her as around 16).

But yeah, I would love for character support threads to come back.

 

[Shinuto]

I think a couple of factors of Shantae's sexualization I haven't seen addressed are both how it plays into orientalism (basically fetishization of the culture she's based on) and her ambiguously young age (I believe one of the writers for the series said he wrote her as around 16).

But yeah, I would love for character support threads to come back.

Dude everything is a fetish these days

 

[Kirbeh]

Re Shantae,

To reiterate, I don't think her chances of being more than a minor cameo are very good at all. I just wanted to be able to discuss her potential move set, etc. without the conversation being derailed. I don't doubt that there are those who greatly overestimate her chances, (I've seen it myself) but I think most of her support, at least currently, is far more grounded, but still enthusiastic. Again my main gripe is that I just think it's unfair that she seemingly can't be discussed without the fanservice subject overtaking the conversation. And to address that

Re fanservice

I'll drop my two cents since it immediately got brought up again.

Sexualization is not inherently bad. Even if it's blatant fanservice and nothing more, that is not inherently bad either. Assigning malicious intent by default is flawed. Disliking it and feeling uncomfortable is still valid, some stuff is more egregious than others or handled poorly.

I don't think the creators or fans of Bayo, 2B, or whoever are bad people for designing things a certain way or enjoying them.

Overall there's a truck load of subjectivity and nuance involved depending on the particular example. The discussion being had right now though is going nowhere and is only further derailing from the threads intended purpose.

If it's a conversation that you really want to continue, I can only suggest moving it elsewhere (the Serious Discussion section maybe?) and giving it a dedicated thread of it's own.

For now, I'll begrudgingly resign myself to just not bringing up certain characters.

That aside, I think we're in need of a new topic. I got nothing rn though, so... Wizardry. Discuss.

 

[Shinuto]

Re Shantae,

To reiterate, I don't think her chances of being more than a minor cameo are very good at all. I just wanted to be able to discuss her potential move set, etc. without the conversation being derailed. I don't doubt that there are those who greatly overestimate her chances, (I've seen it myself) but I think most of her support, at least currently, is far more grounded, but still enthusiastic. Again my main gripe is that I just think it's unfair that she seemingly can't be discussed without the fanservice subject overtaking the conversation. And to address that

Re fanservice

I'll drop my two cents since it immediately got brought up again.

Sexualization is not inherently bad. Even if it's blatant fanservice and nothing more, that is not inherently bad either. Assigning malicious intent by default is flawed. Disliking it and feeling uncomfortable is still valid, some stuff is more egregious than others or handled poorly.

I don't think the creators or fans of Bayo, 2B, or whoever are bad people for designing things a certain way or enjoying them.

Overall there's a truck load of subjectivity and nuance involved depending on the particular example. The discussion being had right now though is going nowhere and is only further derailing from the threads intended purpose.

If it's a conversation that you really want to continue, I can only suggest moving it elsewhere (the Serious Discussion section maybe?) and giving it a dedicated thread of it's own.

For now, I'll begrudgingly resign myself to just not bringing up certain characters.

That aside, I think we're in need of a new topic. I got nothing rn though, so... Wizardry. Discuss.

I will continue to stick to the fact Sakurai acknowledged her as a popular request as proof she has a higher chance than some people claim to think

 

[Kirbeh]

I will continue to stick to the fact Sakurai acknowledged her as a popular request as proof she has a higher chance than some people claim to think

And that's fair, I'm still in the camp that thinks she has a chance too. I'm just not keen on arguing over her chances because while I think they've improved, I don't think they're that high either.

That and the fact she has more active detractors than she does fans (not referring to this thread btw but elsewhere online) has kinda burnt me out on the subject (which does now include Smashboards for the growing tired part.)

 

[Noipoi]

The NintenZone (Official) Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread for the last 12 hours

 

[Kirbeh]

Wizardry is an old and extremely influential series not just for RPGs but video games as a whole. That includes renown and a dedicated following in Japan so it's not a western specific franchise. If anything it's more popular overseas and did influence the big names on their side like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. What content do you think Wizardry could potentially bring were it can considered? And though a historical/influential franchise it is still pretty niche and largely unknown in the west nowadays. How do you think it's actual chances fare? Not even for a character necessarily, just some content in general.

 

[Shinuto]

Wizardry is an old and extremely influential series not just for RPGs but video games as a whole. That includes renown and a dedicated following in Japan so it's not a western specific franchise. If anything it's more popular overseas and did influence the big names on their side like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. What content do you think Wizardry could potentially bring were it can considered? And though a historical/influential franchise it is still pretty niche and largely unknown in the west nowadays. How do you think it's actual chances fare? Not even for a character necessarily, just some content in general.

Wait what the hell is Wizardry?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

This topic is so tiresome.

Let's talk about a different indie instead, even if he's currently PC exclusive and has no localized Japanese release.

I just think he'd be a good fit in general even if chances are currently not the best.

 

[fogbadge]

This topic is so tiresome.

Let's talk about a different indie instead, even if he's currently PC exclusive and has no localized Japanese release.

I just think he'd be a good fit in general even if chances are currently not the best.

Im waiting for his game to come to switch

 

[DarthEnderX]

Wait what the hell is Wizardry?

Wizardry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Im waiting for his game to come to switch

So am I.

Which won't be until the PC version is "finished", which if the latest update to include The Noise as playable is anything to go by, they're still cooking.

 

[fogbadge]

So am I.

Which won't be until the PC version is "finished", which if the latest update to include The Noise as playable is anything to go by, they're still cooking.

shame, a friend of mine recommended it to me

 

[Kirbeh]

Wait what the hell is Wizardry?

If you have an hour to kill (or up the play speed, I recommend 1.5 or 1.75) and enjoy long form content/video essays, this video by St1ka is a pretty decent summary of the series history going game by game. But in short, it's basically one of the proto-RPGs so to speak. One of the first of its kind that while not growing super big itself, influenced the creation/direction of games and series that came after.

Spoiler because of the thumbnail

Spoiler

 

[Jave]

I miss Individual Support Threads too. The fact we can't have Shantae discussion without someone derailing it to sexualization is a big testament to it.

Also I need an Alear topic. I have so many ideas for a moveset and other stuff but I feel they would get lost in the shuffle as it is right now.

Speaking of, what's the rule for this site to reopen Support Threads? Is it enough for Nintendo to say "Yes, we're making Smash" (like the original Brawl reveal not even Sakurai knew about), or do they have to do a formal announcement with footage? (like the Ultimate reveal with the Inklings)?

 

[cashregister9]

Our actual Indie Rep

Actually any New Blood content would be fantastic but also Highly Unlikely

 

[HyperSomari64]

Shout-Outs to Scrimblos that aren't furries, but instead abstract beings,

Gotta be one of my favorite genders.

 

[Garteam]

I don't know if this was posted yet, but the Vice President of Arika tweeted a portion of a new render of Mega Man, which he later took down:

News: Arika Vice President Shares Image of "Unkown" Mega Man Designhttps://t.co/PJndEeaI5A pic.twitter.com/oiT6tcqcNn

— Brian (@Protodude) March 12, 2024

General consensus seems to be that this seems to be a new design for a model kit or a Tekken 8 appearance, but Arika has historically been a studio that has supported both Bandai Namco's fighting game division and Nintendo's online efforts before. Plus, this does look a lot like Mega Man's Smash design... Even if it's almost certainly not for Smash

 

[HyperSomari64]

I don't know if this was posted yet, but the Vice President of Arika tweeted a portion of a new render of Mega Man, which he later took down:

News: Arika Vice President Shares Image of "Unkown" Mega Man Designhttps://t.co/PJndEeaI5A pic.twitter.com/oiT6tcqcNn

— Brian (@Protodude) March 12, 2024

General consensus seems to be that this seems to be a new design for a model kit or a Tekken 8 appearance, but Arika has historically been a studio that has supported both Bandai Namco's fighting game division and Nintendo's online efforts before. Plus, this does look a lot like Mega Man's Smash design... Even if it's almost certainly not for Smash

Heck yeah, Loveable Scrunko bros are back on track baybeh!!!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I don't know if this was posted yet, but the Vice President of Arika tweeted a portion of a new render of Mega Man, which he later took down:

News: Arika Vice President Shares Image of "Unkown" Mega Man Designhttps://t.co/PJndEeaI5A pic.twitter.com/oiT6tcqcNn

— Brian (@Protodude) March 12, 2024

General consensus seems to be that this seems to be a new design for a model kit or a Tekken 8 appearance, but Arika has historically been a studio that has supported both Bandai Namco's fighting game division and Nintendo's online efforts before. Plus, this does look a lot like Mega Man's Smash design... Even if it's almost certainly not for Smash

This is a render for a fighting game series with Mega Man as a guest character...


...but here's the twist, it's for a new Power Stone.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't know if this was posted yet, but the Vice President of Arika tweeted a portion of a new render of Mega Man, which he later took down:

News: Arika Vice President Shares Image of "Unkown" Mega Man Designhttps://t.co/PJndEeaI5A pic.twitter.com/oiT6tcqcNn

— Brian (@Protodude) March 12, 2024

General consensus seems to be that this seems to be a new design for a model kit or a Tekken 8 appearance, but Arika has historically been a studio that has supported both Bandai Namco's fighting game division and Nintendo's online efforts before. Plus, this does look a lot like Mega Man's Smash design... Even if it's almost certainly not for Smash

and it’s been cancelled

 

[Kirbeh]

Some potential music from Wizardry if it ever got into Smash.

Spoiler

 

[AreJay25]

I don't know if this was posted yet, but the Vice President of Arika tweeted a portion of a new render of Mega Man, which he later took down:

News: Arika Vice President Shares Image of "Unkown" Mega Man Designhttps://t.co/PJndEeaI5A pic.twitter.com/oiT6tcqcNn

— Brian (@Protodude) March 12, 2024

General consensus seems to be that this seems to be a new design for a model kit or a Tekken 8 appearance, but Arika has historically been a studio that has supported both Bandai Namco's fighting game division and Nintendo's online efforts before. Plus, this does look a lot like Mega Man's Smash design... Even if it's almost certainly not for Smash

I'd say this is for that one rumored Mega Man Taisen game that's been floating around for a while... but I can't imagine Arika would be working on that.

Outside of Tekken, which would be ****ing crazy, the only other thing I could envision this being used for is maaaaaaybe a guest appearance in Fighting EX Layer? They did announce a new revision for it a while back, but even then I don't know why they wouldn't just pick Ryu or something considering the history lol.

 

[Gorgonzales]

This topic is so tiresome.

Let's talk about a different indie instead, even if he's currently PC exclusive and has no localized Japanese release.

I just think he'd be a good fit in general even if chances are currently not the best.

oh Peppino would be a GREAT fit, a rushdown-grappler hybrid would be so fun to play in a platform fighter. Peppino controls so tightly in his game that it's super easy to see him in Smash.

I'm a really big fan of Pizza Tower's aesthetic, I love how ridiculous its expressions can get and I would love to see that kind of insane body-breaking done in 3D.

I recently beat the Noise update campaign and that was fantastic as well. The noise would be even more unlikely but I'd absolutely love to see him as a semi-clone that puts a twist on a lot of Peppino's moves while having tons of stuff that's unique to him, just like how he is in the actual game. These characters are full of such charm, I wish Pizza Tower content had a better chance to make it in.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

This topic is so tiresome.

Let's talk about a different indie instead, even if he's currently PC exclusive and has no localized Japanese release.

I just think he'd be a good fit in general even if chances are currently not the best.

No joke, Pizza Tower is so far my favorite game that came out last year. Would love Peppino in Smash but I think he's just too niche.

We really need individual support threads to go back up. It feels almost impossible to actually discuss characters in detail for one reason or another.

I'll do you one better: Support threads never should have been closed in the first place. I gives us a place to create discussion around our favorite characters without butting in to every other conversation here.

 

[fogbadge]

oh Peppino would be a GREAT fit, a rushdown-grappler hybrid would be so fun to play in a platform fighter. Peppino controls so tightly in his game that it's super easy to see him in Smash.

I'm a really big fan of Pizza Tower's aesthetic, I love how ridiculous its expressions can get and I would love to see that kind of insane body-breaking done in 3D.

View attachment 386546View attachment 386551View attachment 386554View attachment 386552View attachment 386557View attachment 386559View attachment 386550View attachment 386555View attachment 386558

I recently beat the Noise update campaign and that was fantastic as well. The noise would be even more unlikely but I'd absolutely love to see him as a semi-clone that puts a twist on a lot of Peppino's moves while having tons of stuff that's unique to him, just like how he is in the actual game. These characters are full of such charm, I wish Pizza Tower content had a better chance to make it in.

i see he has an homage to flat wario