Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[BritishGuy54]

Also thinking about it, a series like Mario and a series like Fire Emblem have a large amount of characters for different reasons.

Mario as a franchise has its characters recur in mainline games and spin-offs every year or so.

Fire Emblem has a new main cast every game (rotating). So every other game needs some representation to get a fair view of the series as a whole.

Despite that, I think people are too harsh when it comes to both sides of the argument here. This is why some proposed Mario cuts don’t make sense, and why I believe ditching Rosalina, Daisy, and Bowser Jr in favour of Waluigi or Geno doesn’t make much sense. Or why cutting all FE characters down to just Marth makes zero sense.

I also think this is something to think about when it comes to legacy characters. Times are changing. People are growing, and people feel nostalgia for things that had seemed like mere minutes ago to some people.

Going into the Switch 2, and the next Smash, I think we may lean more towards Wii nostalgia onwards, including the Switch itself. Cutting newer and timeless characters doesn’t make sense in that regard.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

It's a good thing that with all the ports, remasters and rereleases, Switch nostalgia is going to overlap a lot with Wii U, GC and NES to N64 nostalgia

 

[fogbadge]

of all the reoccurring topics on this forum the android 21 one is probably the most tiresome

 

[AlRex]

Android 21 obviously isn't eligible. Throw her, Starkiller, or even Air Dog from NBA Jam out of the conversation. Now, let's get back to a real topic of conversation: how eligible are software, apps, digital pets, pinball games, ticket games, arcade mascots, and all that? We know a peripheral can make it to the game, after all. At least, if it's owned by Nintendo, anyways. Hanafuda could probably be added, but most likely not Rich Uncle Pennybags (sadly) or Ajani Goldmane. But chess is public domain, really, they could add it at any given time.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

No, she has the same exact chance. A flat 0%.
Dragon Ball is not a video game IP; it is a manga IP. That alone is going to stop anything under that copyright from showing up, full stop.

s Dragon Ball a video game IP? No.
Ergo, she is not eligible no matter how you slice it when the IP itself will not even be seriously considered for inclusion.

Again, provide the source where genre of IPs barred entry? The rule said the character had to originate from the video game, not the IP itself. If the source or quote to the contrary, i'll eat my words.

Still then, she's still eligible.

No actually she doesn't because Dragon Ball has zero chance of appearing in the first place. This is a crossover of video game-first franchises. Dragon Ball is an anime franchise, first and foremost, Star Wars is a movie franchise first and foremost.

Non video game franchises have a zero percent chance of ever happening end of story, with the only potential ones being franchises Nintendo objectively owns

No, This is a crossover of Nintendo-All Stars. Third Parties and Non-Nintendo have a zero-chance of getting in. End of Story. Right?

We've been here before, haven't we?

 

[AlRex]

If you want a game where basically anyone or anything can get in, it's called MUGEN. Or Rivals of Aether or Fraymakers, technically. Then again, I want a lot of weird stuff, but it all relates back to video games at least. Sort of. Most of the time. Don't worry about it.

 

[Opossum]

Android 21 obviously isn't eligible. Throw her, Starkiller, or even Air Dog from NBA Jam out of the conversation. Now, let's get back to a real topic of conversation: how eligible are software, apps, digital pets, pinball games, ticket games, arcade mascots, and all that? We know a peripheral can make it to the game, after all. At least, if it's owned by Nintendo, anyways. Hanafuda could probably be added, but most likely not Rich Uncle Pennybags (sadly) or Ajani Goldmane. But chess is public domain, really, they could add it at any given time.

Virtual Pets at the very least are fair game. Despite containing no "video" component, the LCD based games like the Game & Watch, through Mr. Game & Watch himself, have established a precedent that could, theoretically, be followed through with the likes of Tamagotchi and Digimon.

Traditional pinball, though a format with very similar shared roots, is a bit too analogue to count, in my eyes, though this is one of those cases where I could see a fringe case being made if it were Nintendo Specifically.

IMO the biggest question mark is the "non-game software" category, in the sense that they're the equal but opposite case when compared to LCD games and virtual pets. These have the video component but not the game component, while the LCDs and Virtual Pets have the game component but output no video. But even then the only two characters who I can think of for this category are like...Hatsune Miku and Clippy. And of those two, Miku is the only one that makes a remote amount of sense since she at least HAS games.

Basically for me it comes down to "I don't think we'll get characters from non-game electronic software, but if we did it would 100% be Miku."

 

[darkvortex]

Android 21 would never get in before Goku, and Gokus not getting in because of the one actual stated rule we have

 

[superprincess]

Okay I'm clearly not talking to somebody well composed. I don't need to work on anything and I already told you to stop that. You need to work on communication skills in general.

First I wanna be clear about something. Back when Ultimate was announced and people were saying it's an enhanced "port" heavily based on Smash 4 (which was obvious to anyone with eyes) you got massively flamed, downvoted, and smeared from Nintendo's fans. I find it very annoying how the moment Sakurai stated the absolute obvious was the precise moment it suddenly became okay to refer to Ultimate as a Smash 4 port of sorts.

No I don't think I'm misinformed I think we just use the term port differently or have different connotations associated with its use negative or otherwise. Seems like for some people term port is an extremely contentious term that some people associate with laziness, and disrespect. You see the same kinds of fans now freaking out when TOTK is referred to as the obvious enhanced port that it is. This is what this conversation seems like to me.

I don't see how Melee and Brawl having different teams really means anything as far was reuse is concerned. I remember something about Brawl's production where Sakurai or somebody else was talking about having some trouble getting those Melee assets but eventually getting them in time for production. How would those assets even work unless their core engine was similar enough... Can I just take Melee assets and put them in any game I want? Same for 64. You acknowledge asset reuse and sharing "DNA" but treat the term port as a kind of smear. You didn't really disprove anything I said and even seem to acknowledge I was correct in my overall assessment you just take massive umbrage with the term port. I also find it odd how you're seemingly okay with Smash 4 to Ultimate reuse qualifying as a new game but a hypothetically mainline funded Smash 6 using Ultimate + DLC as a base is this inherently low-effort endeavor that's possible additions must be minimalist by default. I don't take your framing for granted because I think it's the warped framing of somebody clearly with a stake in this conversation against Ultimate DX

Lastly you also don't get to arbitrarily decide what the point of a port is and why that's absolute for all ports. This is Smash and Smash has a certain reputation as a brand and needs as a series that would qualify for funding a port with the same amount of budget/resources you would an entry made from scratch. One of those needs could be retaining the roster and building upon it which seems to me like a core element of Smash's brand identity; this large video game all of fame super crossover roster of notable icons of their respective series and genres. Maybe Nintendo thinks less characters translates to less sales? There's no reason why they couldn't give this game a fresh name but I think even a name like Ultra Ultimate would do just fine in selling consumers on the game so long as the additions were numerous and abundant.

You really can't argue it's not the safest and economical approach if done right (using Ultimate+DLC as a base while funding it like Smash 6) so you lot come up with these fantastical assertions that you expected everybody to take for granted. Well I don't. Come up with a better argument. We know for sure that Sakurai had a meeting with Nintendo about the future of Smash right at the end of 2021 when DLC was wrapped up. We know he's working on a new game and we know that a new system is coming out 2025 with Smash taking usually no more than 2 years after a new system's launch to be included on said system. We also know that he went from doing Smash 4 DLC straight into Ultimate so there's precedent there. We know that each Smash game has at the very least pulled content from previous iterations Sakurai and team could certainly put something together from scratch by 2027 but I think a hypothetical Ultimate DX funded like Smash 6 would be the safest bet based on what we actually know.

Um, you literally misunderstood all of my points yet I need to work on communication skills? Let's just not get into that. xx

Ports don't necessarily have negative connotations. Another thing I literally never said that you claim I did... Look at everything MK8D accomplished by having MK8 + its DLC to serve as a base. It did take half a decade, but that's beside the point.

You do seem to have a very weird definition of what a port is. I already gave an solid example that you ignored/didn't understand, so let's take another one...

Mario Tennis Aces. All the in-game assets such as character models, animations, physics, and the overall engine are ported over from Ultra Smash. However, the mechanics, new stadiums, new characters, modes, and overall presentation are changed so much that the game really can't qualify as a straight up port. Not even an enhanced port, really.

And no, TOTK isn't a port of BOTW... like at all. Is MM also a port of OOT? Lol

By that definition, Smash Ultimate really can't be seen as any sort of port of Smash 4, by any stretch of the imagination. It's a new game that heavily reuses (but doesn't straight up port) assets from its prequel.

What I think of when you say "the next Smash should be Ultimate DX" is a MK8D-style port with a few bug fixes, some balance changes, like two new characters and two new stages. That's what a port is, and they're made to save on time and production cost.

What you seem to want is another Ultimate situation, where the new game is based on the previous one but with major changes and additions that make it feel brand new. I'm not saying you can't want that, but it wouldn't be a port, let's not get it twisted. It would be an enhanced port at best, but most likely qualify as a new game with the amount of new stuff y'all also want added on top.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this further, because it's a conversation that I think doesn't interest anyone. I believe a plain "Ultimate DX" is ruled out, given that it's been so long since Ultimate and that the new system will probably have backwards compatibility & major power upgrades, but those are just my beliefs. This whole debacle is just a repeat of pre-Ultimate port vs new game arguments, and I'm really not excited to repeat that.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Android 21 would never get in before Goku, and Gokus not getting in because of the one actual stated rule we have

Hence, the reason why she was brought up in the first place.

On the flip side of Zero, who I feel like has an actual shot to make it in, are there any characters you really want to see that you think have such a low chance that you would feel like you’re just throwing your vote away by voting for them if we ever got another Smash Ballot?

 

[darkvortex]

Hence, the reason why she was brought up in the first place.

I was unaware of this part. Nothing wrong with wanting a character in

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oddly enough I did vote for Brian(Quest 64).

Albeit, it helps he's a Nintendo exclusive and actually from a video game. ...And the series has a bit more love from the fans than it used to(including new hacks, etc).

That said, he has no realistic chance due more to the franchise itself having some copyright issues, since Imagineer pretty much doesn't care about it, nor Nintendo does(note that it had good sales enough to be a Critical Success, buuuuuut that doesn't mean things work out that way. The company went bankrupt before it could produce the intended sequel, and the remake was good, but still didn't fix enough issues people had. The puzzle game was a redeco of Mr. Do! and only looked nicer due to more unique designs, but the gameplay was pretty hard and rather unfair, since you couldn't use money to get more lives. Bosses were near impossible due to that).

 

[Wonder Smash]

I was unaware of this part. Nothing wrong with wanting a character in

Yeah, and I think people kind of overreacted in this case. Nabbitfan only said that Android 21 was eligible (due to being of video game origin), not that she had a good chance and Sakurai never said that a character is ineligible if they don't come from non-video game IP.

 

[Amornal1]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

 

[fogbadge]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

puzzle and rhythm

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

While the viability of certain puzzle game characters is something often debated, there's too many incredibly famous ones that deserve a some sort of spotlight in Smash even if it's not an actual fighter.

I mean at the very least, let's have a touring puzzle game stage. You start with a Tetris oriented section (maybe with some shout outs to Tetris Effect), end up a Puzzle Bobble screen with the likes of Bub and Bob having a cameo, move on to a Dr Mario area with the viruses, then venture to Puyo Puyo with Arle and company in the background, before going to Panel de Pon where Lip is seen performing magic (maybe with some small Yoshi and Pokemon series elements too as easter eggs). Essentially you pay tribute to some of the most notable series in the genre (and the crossovers with them that have occurred) in chronological order without one kind dominating the entire level and becoming tedious.

 

[Amornal1]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

In my case, it would be fps and puzzle games.

 

[Louie G.]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

My personal top priorities are Puzzle games and Rhythm games, which also align with my most wanted characters, but there are so many good options here and I hope the next game makes an effort to take it into account. Not simply to check another genre off a list, but because with each new genre comes a fresh new way to design a character around those unique mechanics.

Just a few options that I consider viable or promising:

Puzzle - Puyo Puyo, Panel de Pon, Bubble Bobble, Portal
Rhythm - Rhythm Heaven, Taiko no Tatsujin
FPS - Halo, DOOM, Half Life, Overwatch
Horror - Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Fatal Frame
Visual Novel - Ace Attorney, Danganronpa, Famicom Detective Club, Tokimeki Memorial
Beam 'Em Up - Streets of Rage, Double Dragon, Kunio-Kun / River City Ransom
SHMUP - Metal Slug, Contra, Twinbee, Touhou

I feel like some of these will eventually get explored, considering how many are so important to the gaming landscape. Although one of my personal gripes with the way DLC was chosen is that it didn't lean hard enough into exploring this untapped potential - we locked in hard on Platformers, RPGs and Fighting Games. Great characters, but I do hope they realize moving forward how many other popular untapped genres there are to serve. Say what you will about Steve, but I think the fact that he comes from a Sandbox game shaped his playstyle into something that only he could have.

 

[Noipoi]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

Quirky indie Earthbound inspired RPGs

 

[BritishGuy54]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

Strategy RPGs, perhaps? Yeah, we have Fire Emblem, but that’s about it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

A lot of fans end up falling into one of two traps. One is the seniority trap. Prioritising older faces over newer ones, be it veterans and newcomers.

"Trap" is a weird word for "true path".

Still then, she's still eligible.

Keep telling yourself that.

If you want a game where basically anyone or anything can get in, it's called MUGEN. Or Rivals of Aether or Fraymakers, technically.

Fortnite.

I was unaware of this part. Nothing wrong with wanting a character in

Again, the issue wasn't having 21 as one of their answers. It was not having her in the 4P section of their answers, when she's a 4P character.

Nabbitfan only said that Android 21 was eligible (due to being of video game origin)

And he's wrong.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Again, provide the source where genre of IPs barred entry? The rule said the character had to originate from the video game, not the IP itself. If the source or quote to the contrary, i'll eat my words.

Still then, she's still eligible.




No, This is a crossover of Nintendo-All Stars. Third Parties and Non-Nintendo have a zero-chance of getting in. End of Story. Right?

We've been here before, haven't we?

It's common ****ing sense. You're being needlessly pedantic for the sake of an argument that will never be broken because Sakurai never has to debunk it because it you think about it for more than two seconds you realize how stupid it is. Sakurai shouldn't have to point out that characters like that aren't getting in because he's already told us that Goku, Iron Man, and SpongeBob are ineligible.

And no one with half a brain ever thought third parties were off the table, you're making up a non-existent argument to support your own delusion.

Learn to use common sense and inferences or you'll have a very long and very unfun time on the internet, kid.

 

[DarthEnderX]

In my case, it would be fps and puzzle games.

Dark Samus and Dr. Mario: "Am I a joke to you?"

 

[Louie G.]

Dr. Mario: "Am I a joke to you?"

"Yes, yes you are."

Jokes aside, I'd actually be willing to accept Dr. Mario as a puzzle game character if anything in his moveset represented that. Maybe if he tossed his pills upward, and they slowly made their way down. If they really committed to restructuring him to try and acknowledge it, then I'd give him the necessary props but I crave something a little bit more tailored to the genre's unique attributes.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

And he's wrong.

Pretty sure FighterZ is video game all things considered

It's common ****ing sense.

All that waffle yet nary a source to seen that proves the contrary and or back anything you just said.

Common Sense would dictate if a Character originating from a Video Game is requirement to be eligible then said Character that originated from a Video Game would b be eligible but guess "Common Sense" to you is whatever false narrative you need to be at the spur of the moment. There are no semantics here.


Never thought one character for a list for throwaway vote of least-likely would still be enough to gather controversy but hey, this is Smash Bros.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Dr. Mario barely represents it.

Not much different from the Resident Evil Spirits barely having any Horror Representation.

They exist, but that's... it.

I'd like to representation of the gameplay, not just a character existing. Among others. The closest to FPS would be Dark Samus in the same vein, but she doesn't have anything FPS-like at all. Also, we probably have some FPS-related Spirits too, but still.

I get the question actually says "unrepresented", so they do count within its context(unless they meant represented through gameplay, respectively). But really, we can do better~

Hilariously, Duck Hunt's Light Gun-related gameplay is based upon a very early type of FPS. A better example of true FPS gameplay however is Snake's Final Smash(along with one of Samus'). There is minor gameplay, it's just not franchise-based.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Pretty sure FighterZ is video game all things considered

All that waffle yet nary a source to seen that proves the contrary and or back anything you just said.

Common Sense would dictate if a Character originating from a Video Game is requirement to be eligible then said Character that originated from a Video Game would b be eligible but guess "Common Sense" to you is whatever false narrative you need to be at the spur of the moment. There are no semantics here.

Never thought one character for a list for throwaway vote of least-likely would still be enough to gather controversy but hey, this is Smash Bros.

Common sense dictates that Sakurai isn't an idiot and knows that people who ask for Goku aren't asking for "Dragon Ball representation", they're asking for Goku. Even if he did operate under your pedantic little delusion that 21, Starkiller, etc. were viable options, he wouldn't go for it because he doesn't operate in loopholes. He's very strict about representing the franchises he's allowed to use with the utmost of care, and it's frankly disrespectful to the amount of work he's put in to giving us characters nobody thought would ever get in.

On top of that, he wouldn't even put someone like Terra Branford in because he knew that Cloud and Sephiroth were the most popular Final Fantasy characters. What makes you think he would ever even consider a literal nothing of a character like 21 or Starkiller? It's like you're asking for the shark pirate captain from Mario RPG before Mario?

I'm done. If your head is buried too far in the sand to listen to reason, I'm not gonna waste any more breath talking to you.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

common consensus here seems to be puzzle, rhythm, and FPS. I agree with these, and personally I'd choose Lip/Tetris, Rhythm Troupe/Don Chan, and Heavy to represent them respectively.

 

[cashregister9]

Anyway, which genres should be represented in a new smash bros game? Specifically unrepresented ones.

I agree with what everyone else is saying, Puzzle, Rhythm, Shooter, Horror and I would also add Visual Novel

 

[AreJay25]

Yeah it's funny how not puzzle game Dr. Mario actually is.

Like, yes, he was a clone from a game that added a ton of clones. But if you knew nothing about his games prior to Melee, you'd assume he was just some random ass alternate costume that they decided to turn into a separate character for some bizarre reason. Feels like something that should have been touched up on in Ultimate to make him stand out a little bit more as opposed to him just being slower, stronger Mario with a bad recovery.

 

[Speed Weed]

Oh dear, apparently this is one of his weaker BTR videos. Anybody willing to give the rundown?

This is gonna be hard because trust me when I say the video was a goldmine of insane **** but I'll try my best to give a succint rundown

Roster's been posted already, as mentioned it's a cut half add half deal. Naturally, this lends himself to a lot of....interesting cuts. The one that drew the most ire was him cutting Yoshi, but there are also other highlights such as him cutting both Diddy and K. Rool, cutting every FE character except for Marth and Chrom swapping Olimar for the generic Pikmin 4 protagonist, cutting Terry and Kazuya cause Smash fans didn't know who they were (as if that's somehow these characters' problem), etc.

Then we get to the newcomer roster. This one's a lot to unpack, but I think overall the most pressing complaint I've seen was that a lot of his picks felt very.....outdated, or at least coming from an outdated mindset. A lot of the picks are fine in a vacuum, but put together just feel like a who's who of mid 2010s speculation darlings. Of note is ALL of his first party new series' just being a parade of dead 2000s Nintendo properties, with no love given to more recent affairs like Ring Fit or Astral Chain, or his two indie picks being Shovel Knight and Shantae while ignoring the likes of Undertale. And like, these characters are okay! But it does kind of paint a picture of the whole thing feeling somewhat out-of-touch when there's this much Stuff That Was Relevant/Talked About 10 Years Ago while some pretty notable names are left off.

In general, a big criticism is that to go along with that, a lot of the choices feel like they go for kind of those tired stereotypical Smash Fan pitfalls. The likes of Anna and Black Shadow make the cut (who I've personally never been fond of as choices), he for some reason still values Nintendo connection above all else (to the point that he passed up Alucard for Soma Cruz), it makes the whole thing feel, again, very out-of-touch and uninspired.

Now we get more into the nitty-gritty of it. The man constantly contradicts himself. Like, all the goddamn time. He cuts several characters for not being that relevant (incl. the likes of K. Rool and WFT) then proceeds to add a billion dead Nintendo franchises, he cuts characters like Snake for not fitting the "tone" then adds Doomguy, it makes the roster feel sloppy and inconsistent. The reasoning for some of the picks is also oftentimes either flimsy or utterly insane - him spending most of the Doomguy segment emphasizing the Doom Crossing memes which no one has talked about in like 3 years, him going off on a tangent about how actually adding a second F-Zero rep would be the most hype thing you could do for first-parties, he constantly lazily talks about how X character could summon other characters from their game, he adds two human Pokémon characters (one of them being Giovanni), he adds Pearl and Marina as echoes of Callie and Marie, it is utterly unhinged.

I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of stuff, but ultimately the big point of all this is this roster feels like it was made by someone who only really keeps up with discussion on a surface level and oftentimes makes decisions based purely on anecdotal friend-of-a-friend experience. It's not a good roster.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

This is gonna be hard because trust me when I say the video was a goldmine of insane **** but I'll try my best to give a succint rundown

Roster's been posted already, as mentioned it's a cut half add half deal. Naturally, this lends himself to a lot of....interesting cuts. The one that drew the most ire was him cutting Yoshi, but there are also other highlights such as him cutting both Diddy and K. Rool, cutting every FE character except for Marth and Chrom swapping Olimar for the generic Pikmin 4 protagonist, cutting Terry and Kazuya cause Smash fans didn't know who they were (as if that's somehow these characters' problem), etc.

Then we get to the newcomer roster. This one's a lot to unpack, but I think overall the most pressing complaint I've seen was that a lot of his picks felt very.....outdated, or at least coming from an outdated mindset. A lot of the picks are fine in a vacuum, but put together just feel like a who's who of mid 2010s speculation darlings. Of note is ALL of his first party new series' just being a parade of dead 2000s Nintendo properties, with no love given to more recent affairs like Ring Fit or Astral Chain, or his two indie picks being Shovel Knight and Shantae while ignoring the likes of Undertale. And like, these characters are okay! But it does kind of paint a picture of the whole thing feeling somewhat out-of-touch when there's this much Stuff That Was Relevant/Talked About 10 Years Ago while some pretty notable names are left off.

In general, a big criticism is that to go along with that, a lot of the choices feel like they go for kind of those tired stereotypical Smash Fan pitfalls. The likes of Anna and Black Shadow make the cut (who I've personally never been fond of as choices), he for some reason still values Nintendo connection above all else (to the point that he passed up Alucard for Soma Cruz), it makes the whole thing feel, again, very out-of-touch and uninspired.

Now we get more into the nitty-gritty of it. The man constantly contradicts himself. Like, all the goddamn time. He cuts several characters for not being that relevant (incl. the likes of K. Rool and WFT) then proceeds to add a billion dead Nintendo franchises, he cuts characters like Snake for not fitting the "tone" then adds Doomguy, it makes the roster feel sloppy and inconsistent. The reasoning for some of the picks is also oftentimes either flimsy or utterly insane - him spending most of the Doomguy segment emphasizing the Doom Crossing memes which no one has talked about in like 3 years, him going off on a tangent about how actually adding a second F-Zero rep would be the most hype thing you could do for first-parties, he constantly lazily talks about how X character could summon other characters from their game, he adds two human Pokémon characters (one of them being Giovanni), he adds Pearl and Marina as echoes of Callie and Marie, it is utterly unhinged.

I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of stuff, but ultimately the big point of all this is this roster feels like it was made by someone who only really keeps up with discussion on a surface level and oftentimes makes decisions based purely on anecdotal friend-of-a-friend experience. It's not a good roster.

The sad thing is Thorgi's videos aren't normally like this. Usually he makes extremely solid lineups - but this was the one he really screwed up.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Anyway, Thorgi just did a Smash video if anyone’s cringing anus is interested.

I really shouldn't be taking this vid seriously given the arbitrary rules in place but good god is this such a confused roster.

-There's no excuse for cutting Yoshi, period. Adding almost half a dozen new Mario characters does not remedy that since they're all of lesser importance than him. Like c'mon if Yoshi's not important enough then Geno has zero business being here. Saying he's also better fit as an Assist feels ironic with there being several newcomers on this roster that are currently Assists.

-Yeah just cut Rosalina because "Galaxy games old lol". Ignore how much legacy those games carry and how much they're still referenced by Nintendo to this day. Conveniently leave out that newcomer Captain Toad also originates from those games.

-Meowscarada is obvious but Cynthia and Giovanni is just way too much. Including Red and the other Solomon that weren't cut would add up to 13 movesets deticated to Pokemon. I know he also mentioned the possibility of Cynthia and Giovanni doing most of their own fighting... I don't see TPC agreeing to that. Besides that's just odd...

-Cutting Diddy while adding Dixie is truely a carriage before the horse decision. It's either Diddy solo, both get in or neither gets in. This option makes the least amount of sense by far.

-I don't play the spacies that much but c'mon in no way do Falco and Wolf still play "Too similarly to Fox" and considering them as Echoes is just wild.

-Bayonetta is third party, straight up. Last time I checked Bayonetta 1 wasn't originally released on the Nintendo Wii.

-Do we really have to cut Captain Olimar in favor of silent Pikmin 4 captains that lack any of the sauce Olimar has? Olimar is an actual character with a family and a captain's log. Who genuinely cares for the Pikmin 4 avatars?

-Off the Hook would not at all work as an Echo Fighter for the Squid Sisters. Pearl's like a whole foot shorter and all four main different weapon classes.

-I can't really speak for Xenoblade fans but cutting Pyra/Mythra and then adding XC3 Rex and then calling him "The character people wanted" must feel like such a slap to the face to their fans and that statement Isn't at all accurate from what I remember. Fans were pretty fine or even happy that Rex was excluded.

-Credit for not saying Black Shadow should just be a Falcondorf moveset dumpster I guess but him as a fully fledged original fighter just ain't happening ever. Emphasizing that stock exchange story is also a werid way of going about it.

-Chibi-Robo?.... Starfy??.... Saki??? So it's fine to cut Rosalina and Palutena because of their games being old but now we're adding characters from basically dead franchises? Why does legacy matter here but not for Galaxy or Uprising or any other character that was cut for vague relevance related reasons? And where are the newer Nintendo IPs?? Ring Fit? Astral Chain?? ARMS would still be the newest IP on this roster and that game's almost 7 years old.

-It feels really disingenuous to still call Shovel Knight "The face of indie games". In 2015 yeah maybe but now? Absolutely not. Having an Amiibo is cool and all but he didn't exactly get a whole Netflix series nor did Yacht Club ever paid a visit to Sakurai's house to play Smash against him. Pointing out his AT doesn't help your case when two certain Mii Costumes were added with much more fanfare and a bigger reaction.

-Soma Cruz, what are you saying??? Nintendo relevance? That goes out the window when Alucard was literally considered for Ultimate. If you really have to be deadset on that aspect just do what makes sense and keep in Simon Belmont. This is such a hyperspecific inclusion that doesn't make sense when you ignore arbitrary rules about cuts and Nintendo relevance.


"Cut and rebuild half the roster" be damned! Most of these decisions are dogwater.

 

[Schnee117]

The secret is Thorgi has always been **** at making rosters and coming up with movesets. Y'all just didn't know enough about the other stuff he made rosters for to realise that.

 

[Louie G.]

Anyway, Thorgi just did a Smash video if anyone’s cringing anus is interested.

I haven't watched the whole thing but it does remind me of my least favorite trend in the community, in this case just a very extreme case of it - "New for the sake of new".

Freshness is important when building a new roster, we can't simply lean on our old favorites all the time. But there is a certain limitation to how far we can go, sacrificing evergreen characters like Yoshi or Diddy Kong for decidedly less prominent or popular characters is objectively a bad decision. Replacing Simon with Soma Cruz... Smash just typically doesn't do that. Even in cases like Pyra and Mythra... you have to judge those characters in a vacuum. They are extremely popular, they are mechanically fresh. They're not just gonna swap them out with the new thing full stop (especially if that new thing is Rex, lol). If Smash's intent was to keep switching in the new to replace the old, we wouldn't have stacked up all these Pokemon or Fire Emblem characters. Regardless of whether you personally like those characters or not, it is indicative of the fact that Smash does not arbitrarily "replace" one character with another just 'cuz.

And yet I always see rosters fall victim to this idea in frustrating ways. I've seen a nonzero amount of people suggest Raven Beak is switched in over Ridley, or Meta Knight is replaced with Bandana Dee. Revolving door casts are one thing, well established prominent characters are another. I'm not that pressed about it because I know for a fact these people are wrong in that judgement, but it's all the more baffling to me that they are so short sighted.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Even if he did operate under your pedantic little delusion that 21, Starkiller, etc. were viable options, he wouldn't go for it because he doesn't operate in loopholes.

You spoke to Sakurai on the phone or something? Apparently fitting requirements are now loopholes.

On top of that, he wouldn't even put someone like Terra Branford in because he knew that Cloud and Sephiroth were the most popular Final Fantasy characters. What makes you think he would ever even consider a literal nothing of a character like 21 or Starkiller?

Maybe because like 21 and Starkiller, Cloud and Sephiroth are also characters who originate from Video Games.

You saying "literal nothing of a character" as if they don't more relevance and popularity than almost half of the roster already. As if that has stopped anyone from making it in.

The secret is Thorgi has always been **** at making rosters and coming up with movesets. Y'all just didn't know enough about the other stuff he made rosters for to realise that.

Most of these make-up rosters have never been appealing. Bias and mis-understanding patterns and decisions haunt alot of them like the plague.

Was considered in watching but now idk. Rosters is new one. How does he screw up that?

 

[Speed Weed]

The sad thing is Thorgi's videos aren't normally like this. Usually he makes extremely solid lineups - but this was the one he really screwed up.

I....hm. I mean, I think the dude's managed to make some okay rosters sometimes, but I'll have to admit I've been iffy on some of his rosters even before this one. I'll have to kind of agree with Schnee here: I think the issues present in this roster have already been present in some of his videos beforehand, but they never got as much scrutiny because they were based on stuff the average viewer of his' was comparatively less familiar with - whereas Smash is something that Everyone follows and Everyone understands, so the flaws here are a lot more apparent. But they've been there for some time now.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I....hm. I mean, I think the dude's managed to make some okay rosters sometimes, but I'll have to admit I've been iffy on some of his rosters even before this one. I'll have to kind of agree with Schnee here: I think the issues present in this roster have already been present in some of his videos beforehand, but they never got as much scrutiny because they were based on stuff the average viewer of his' was comparatively less familiar with - whereas Smash is something that Everyone follows and Everyone understands, so the flaws here are a lot more apparent. But they've been there for some time now.

I DO remember you having quite a few issues with his Sega Smash roster. Are a lot of those issues still prevalent here?

 

[darkvortex]

I get why he throws gimmicks into every roster, it's far too easy to just write a list of characters and that's not very interesting for a video, but I do think (the SFVT video and the SNK vs. Capcom one stick out to me) it hurts the rosters. I think his rosters tend to be stronger when he does single franchises like TMNT or Mega Man(though I know people who really weren't find of his OP roster) and his horror one was pretty good

 

[BritishGuy54]

-There's no excuse for cutting Yoshi, period. Adding almost half a dozen new Mario characters does not remedy that since they're all of lesser importance than him. Like c'mon if Yoshi's not important enough then Geno has zero business being here. Saying he's also better fit as an Assist feels ironic with there being several newcomers on this roster that are currently Assists.

-Yeah just cut Rosalina because "Galaxy games old lol". Ignore how much legacy those games carry and how much they're still referenced by Nintendo to this day. Conveniently leave out that newcomer Captain Toad also originates from those games.

-I can't really speak for Xenoblade fans but cutting Pyra/Mythra and then adding XC3 Rex and then calling him "The character people wanted" must feel like such a slap to the face to their fans and that statement Isn't at all accurate from what I remember. Fans were pretty fine or even happy that Rex was excluded.

No excuse for cutting Yoshi and Rosalina, I agree, alongside cutting Bowser Jr and Daisy. Especially as these are in every Mario spin-off under the sun nowadays. And also some of the series’ most iconic characters.

As a Xenoblade fan, I have toyed with the idea of adding XC3 Rex to a roster, but only as an extra bonus pick after Shulk, Pyra/Mythra, and Noah/Mio.

Fans seemed to be happy that Rex didn’t get in because it his XC2 incarnation, which people still critique as being childish or annoying (even though that’s the point of the story, Rex maturing and growing up) to this day.

Rex would just play completely differently from Pyra and Mythra, and I just could not justify replacing them with XC3 Rex.