Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Dawg, it's not "changing the series direction" to ask for a black or gay or trans character in a game

It is if you're getting them only on those things and not based on their, you know, iconic status in video games, seeing that Smash Bros is supposed about video game celebration. If anything, I would've thought people would just accept every character equally and not even bat an eye at all that stuff.

 

[PF9]

Another feature I want is for the ability of online users to form watch parties for other people's live online matches and for users to bet in-game currency on the outcome of the match.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I wish we were able to have these conversations in a mature way without being reminded of this. It’s okay to point out that a character would contribute something on the front of representation while also celebrating all their other merits. I don’t think anyone here is asking for a character exclusively because they fulfill this role.

That’s what I just did, I want Off the Hook independent of that and Punch-Out is one of my favorite games ever. It’s just nice that in the scenario where we get these characters, they would also be expanding the Smash roster’s scope. It’s a win win.

We have so many conditional quotas for trivial points of artificial, meaningless representation perpetuated by the community already, but it’s suddenly an issue when it’s about something real like someone’s identity. Kind of a shame.

Well, that's the problem right there; we should playing these games for fun, not for real issues.

 

[Ivander]

Well, that's the problem right there; we should playing these games for fun, not for real issues.

You can have real issues in video games and they can still be fun. A game can have both fun gameplay and a good story that brings up issues that make people think about said issues.

 

[Louie G.]

Well, that's the problem right there; we should playing these games for fun, not for real issues.

Why do you think we’re here talking about Smash Bros if not because we play the game for fun?

 

[NintenRob]

Well, that's the problem right there; we should playing these games for fun, not for real issues.

You can apply that to literally anything, it does not take away from how important it is for people who fall in to different minority groups feel seen

 

[HyperSomari64]

I'm Peruvian, and it's bad if I want Annet Myer from Ernest Evans in Smash?

 

[Wonder Smash]

You can have real issues in video games and they can still be fun. A game can have both fun gameplay and a good story that brings up issues that make people think about said issues.

Then that part of the story is not good for me, as I play games to get away from real issues, not be reminded of them.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm Peruvian, and it's bad if I want Annet Myer from Ernest Evans in Smash?

Not at all. I remember the first time I played Pikmin 3 and realised the game was set in Australia. I feel a little giddy now every time I play the Garden of Hope stage in Smash Bros now

 

[Schnee117]

Well, that's the problem right there; we should playing these games for fun, not for real issues.

If anything it's the lack of diverse characters that's the issue though.
If Smash had a healthy selection of diverse characters this wouldn't be brought up as a problem, it's entirely self inflicted by the game itself. The game would be even more fun for me if I could beat up Mario and Sonic with a character I identify with, like Edelgard or Bridget or Testament. It's fun as is beating them up with Terry and Lucina and Ike, but it's even better when I can point at a character and go "they're just like me" and have them do it instead.

 

[NintenRob]

Then that part of the story is not good for me, as I play games to get away from real issues, not be reminded of them.

If black people remind you of "Real issues" than you have a very serious problem

 

[fogbadge]

i think representation in smash warrant a thread of it's own

 

[Wonder Smash]

Why do you think we’re here talking about Smash Bros if not because we play the game for fun?

If Smash is fun to you, why is it's (lack of) representation is a subject now?

 

[Louie G.]

If Smash is fun to you, why is it's (lack of) representation is a subject now?

Makes absolutely no sense. We talk about things Smash lacks every single day, does that mean none of us enjoy it? Nobody here is innocent of that.

It’s okay to criticize the things we love… again, that’s kinda what we do here. Not much of a difference in saying I wish we had a black character vs I wish we had a puzzle game character. The latter makes me feel included because I like puzzle games, the former makes a bunch of other people feel included because it’s a character they can see themselves in. Feel like both should be welcome discussions.

…and like, I’m not saying they’re equally important, I’m just trying to show why this discussion really shouldn’t be treated as such a taboo. You guys get me.

 

[Ivander]

If Smash is fun to you, why is it's (lack of) representation is a subject now?

Do you not see the amount of criticising towards Smash's online? You can criticise something even if you like it or find it fun.

There's a reason why the people most critical of something are people who care about that something.

 

[Wonder Smash]

If black people remind you of "Real issues" than you have a very serious problem

What are you talking about?

If anything it's the lack of diverse characters that's the issue though.
If Smash had a healthy selection of diverse characters this wouldn't be brought up as a problem, it's entirely self inflicted by the game itself. The game would be even more fun for me if I could beat up Mario and Sonic with a character I identify with, like Edelgard or Bridget or Testament. It's fun as is beating them up with Terry and Lucina and Ike, but it's even better when I can point at a character and go "they're just like me" and have them do it instead.

And if that character doesn't fit your playstyle, then what? If that character isn't iconic enough but still got in over characters that are, that's still okay with you? Just as long as they look like you?

 

[Louie G.]

And if that character doesn't play fit your playstyle, then what? If that character isn't iconic enough but still got in over characters that are, that's still okay with you? Just as long as they look like you?

Are you gonna be okay if Ryu Hayabusa makes it in but you don’t really end up clicking with him? I’m going to assume the answer to that is yes, you’d rather he be there than not at all.

What’s the difference? Obviously we don’t retroactively wish characters weren’t added just because we didn’t end up maining them.

 

[7NATOR]

Low-Key, as a Black person themselves, if they are not gonna add any Black Characters (I don't think there's many viable options) It would be cool if they added more Dark Skin Color options than just for Avatar based characters. It would be cool to play as Black Mario, or a Black Sephiroth. Maybe original tan Daisy. maybe if 2B gets in, they could add in the 2P Color alt that originated from Soul Calibur 6.

Also People of Latin and/or Hispanic origin do get overseen when it comes to Diverse representation in games I Notice, I think there's even less options for them in gaming. Not counting fighting games, the only characters I can think of is the dude from Gucamelee and Carmen Sandiego. I guess it's good on Nick All Stars 2 that they have El Tigre in there, and also other Fighting games for having fighters from Different origins, Nationalities , Orientations, Body types, etc and such.

But honestly, it's whatever. We just have too see where the future brings.

 

[NintenRob]

At the end of the day, no one is suggesting we add a character just because they represent a minority. Nobody wants to see random NPC #43 just because they're latino


But someone like Carmen Sandiego? Who made a pretty big impact on the gaming sphere and the edutainment sphere? Who has had multiple media adaptions? Who also happens to have a Latina background?

Bring it on.

 

[Schnee117]

And if that character doesn't play fit your playstyle, then what? If that character isn't iconic enough but still got in over characters that are, that's still okay with you? Just as long as they look like you?

If they don't fit my style then oh well, I'll just play them in a more casual setting instead of a more serious setting.
And yes, because they're characters I want. I'll take the three characters I named over characters I want less than them. The fact they're like me is part of why I like them after all.

This really isn't a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Laniv]

And if that character doesn't fit your playstyle, then what? If that character isn't iconic enough but still got in over characters that are, that's still okay with you? Just as long as they look like you?

Yes. Better than not having them at all. And hey, someone else probably likes them because that character looks like them, so.

 

[Speed Weed]

It really doesn't, as that's not the point of this series. And it really sounds kind of selfish to think that a series should change its direction just to cater to them. There are already other games that has what they're looking for anyway. It doesn't have to be this one too.



Then just create a Mii. Simple as that.

.....sigh.....Look.

I guess I should make my stance on this issue clear: I think it's understandable why Smash hasn't added much in the way of ethnic and gender minorities, and I don't think it's exactly this moral failing of the team that they haven't, but......it wouldn't hurt. It'd be nice to have. I don't think it's that big of an ask to add some characters to make people feel seen.

And that's why I think this comes across as a very tone-deaf and dismissive response. People asking for characters they can see themselves in is not an unreasonable demand. It's a perfectly natural feeling to have, and I think it's pretty disrespectful to tell ppl who ask for this to just "go make a Mii", as if they were annoying little kids who needed to sit down and stay in the corner. Hell, if anything, I think you're the one who's coming across as selfish and entitled, acting as if the addition of more diverse characters is going to ruin the "sanctity" and "fun" of Smash. Like, what does it say about you that the mere existence of black, LGBT+ etc characters is somehow a reminder of "real issues" that Smash is an escape from? Are these people in any way a threat to you? It's not like we're suddenly gonna start tuning into presentations where Sakurai delves into the history of the Stonewall riots. It's the "my existence is political" issue - black, gay and trans people are not these boogeymen who ruin the fun for everyone. They're not these everpresent specters who remind you of the existence of real world issues, they're not walking embodiements of an after-school special. Not everything that portrays them has to be intrinsically tied to political issues. They're people, people who have as much right to be included in "simple fun" things like this as anybody else. And the sooner we stop treating anybody who isn't a white cishet person as only existing for political matters, the better.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Makes absolutely no sense. We talk about things Smash lacks every single day, does that mean none of us enjoy it? Nobody here is innocent of that.

It’s okay to criticize the things we love… again, that’s kinda what we do here. Not much of a difference in saying I wish we had a black character vs I wish we had a puzzle game character. The latter makes me feel included because I like puzzle games, the former makes a bunch of other people feel included because it’s a character they can see themselves in. Feel like both should be welcome discussions.

…and like, I’m not saying they’re equally important, I’m just trying to show why this discussion really shouldn’t be treated as such a taboo. You guys get me.

That is not a good comparison. There's a big difference. Puzzle game is still game related and therefore, still relates to what Smash Bros. Not different from FPS character or Beat'em up character, or Hack n' Slash character. In fact, that could very well be a new game mechanic that could be used for a moveset in Smash. Not the same as a person's race, which is overall irrelevant to what Smash Bros is.

And like I said, there are Mii Fighters. Just use that.

Yes. Better than not having them at all. And hey, someone else probably likes them because that character looks like them, so.

And that's where the selfish part comes in.

If they don't fit my style then oh well, I'll just play them in a more casual setting instead of a more serious setting.
And yes, because they're characters I want. I'll take the three characters I named over characters I want less than them. The fact they're like me is part of why I like them after all.

This really isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Congrats. You tossed Smash's concept aside just to waste three slots on characters just because they look like you.

But that's not being selfish...

 

[Ivander]

And yes, because they're characters I want. I'll take the three characters I named over characters I want less than them. The fact they're like me is part of why I like them after all.

This really isn't a hard concept to grasp.

I don't think I can count the amount of people who have characters they want more than characters that they are okay with. I mean, Ramza from Final Fantasy Tactics is one of the characters I really want in Smash Bros. and I know he has next to no chance next to someone like Jonesy or a character from Genshin Impact or another FF7 character.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp that people do have obscure characters they want that they would take over characters that they are okay with, but don't want.

 

[NintenRob]

Ok does anyone know who the local mod or admin is? I feel like we might need some final statements soon because this conversation is going nowhere

 

[Wonder Smash]

.....sigh.....Look.

I guess I should make my stance on this issue clear: I think it's understandable why Smash hasn't added much in the way of ethnic and gender minorities, and I don't think it's exactly this moral failing of the team that they haven't, but......it wouldn't hurt. It'd be nice to have. I don't think it's that big of an ask to add some characters to make people feel seen.

And that's why I think this comes across as a very tone-deaf and dismissive response. People asking for characters they can see themselves in is not an unreasonable demand. It's a perfectly natural feeling to have, and I think it's pretty disrespectful to tell ppl who ask for this to just "go make a Mii", as if they were annoying little kids who needed to sit down and stay in the corner. Hell, if anything, I think you're the one who's coming across as selfish and entitled, acting as if the addition of more diverse characters is going to ruin the "sanctity" and "fun" of Smash. Like, what does it say about you that the mere existence of black, LGBT+ etc characters is somehow a reminder of "real issues" that Smash is an escape from? Are these people in any way a threat to you? It's not like we're suddenly gonna start tuning into presentations where Sakurai delves into the history of the Stonewall riots. It's the "my existence is political" issue - black, gay and trans people are not these boogeymen who ruin the fun for everyone. They're not these everpresent specters who remind you of the existence of real world issues, they're not walking embodiements of an after-school special. Not everything that portrays them has to be intrinsically tied to political issues. They're people, people who have as much right to be included in "simple fun" things like this as anybody else. And the sooner we stop treating anybody who isn't a white cishet person as only existing for political matters, the better.

You're putting all this before what Smash Bros is clearly about. Can you tell me what that is? Because last I check, it wasn't about real life representation.

 

[Louie G.]

And that's where the selfish part comes in.

I think telling a black user they’re selfish for wanting a character they can relate to is crossing the line a little bit.

By your logic anyone is selfish for wanting a character for a personal reason. That’s not fair. Obviously people can love a character when they see themselves in that character - am I selfish for loving Little Mac because he’s a short italian dude from the east coast like me? Our similarities draw us near characters we can associate with. The only selfish thing going on here is policing what is a good and noble reason to like a character and what isn’t.

 

[NintenRob]

Sorry Zerp not sure if administrator has moderator powers(they're usually higher in my experience) but I think we may need you weigh in now

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think telling a black user they’re selfish for wanting a character they can relate to is crossing the line a little bit.

By your logic anyone is selfish for wanting a character for a personal reason. That’s not fair. Obviously people can love a character when they see themselves in that character - am I selfish for loving Little Mac because he’s a short italian dude from the east coast like me? Our similarities draw us near characters we can associate with. The only selfish thing going on here is policing what is a good and noble reason to like a character and what isn’t.

I think telling a black person that they can't relate to any other character besides a black one is crossing the line a little bit.

A person can relate to another character for different reasons but real life representation is not the point of Smash, so the "lack" of representation of shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Louie G.]

I think telling black person that they can't relate to any other character besides a black one is crossing the line a little bit.

Don’t put words in my mouth. Laniv just spoke about how a black character would make them feel represented. Nice try but that reversal doesn’t work.

Anyway, I’m done with this discussion. I think everything that needed to be said has already been said, I’m just disappointed that it had to devolve into this.

 

[NintenRob]

I think telling black person that they can't relate to any other character besides a black one is crossing the line a little bit.

Holy **** no one is saying that. People relate to characters for a whole host of different reasons. That doesn't take away from the importance of representation

 

[Schnee117]

I like the part where a person going "hey I think someone else would probably like this character too" is called selfish.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm thinking that the Pokémon newcomer will probably be from Scarlet and Violet. There's a possible chance that we don't get Gen 10 at all until 2026, and the next Smash game might be out as early as 2025, which could possibly lead to another Roy situation when it comes to the Pokémon newcomer. But which one, I don't know.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Don’t put words in my mouth. Laniv just spoke about how a black character would make them feel represented. Nice try but that reversal doesn’t work.

Anyway, I’m done with this discussion. I think everything that needed to be said has already been said, I’m just disappointed that it had to devolve into this.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about pushing aside the concept for something that the series is not about, not representation as a whole.

Holy **** no one is saying that. People relate to characters for a whole host of different reasons. That doesn't take away from the importance of representation

I also never said black people were an issue either, like you accused me.

I like the part where a person going "hey I think someone else would probably like this character too" is called selfish.

I also like the part where having three useless characters wasting up slots just because they look like one person is somehow not selfish.

 

[NintenRob]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about pushing aside the concept for something that the series is not about, not representation as a whole.

Alrighty, then let's put things in the perspective of smash.

At the end of the day, people want a character in Smash, because they like the character. And the reason they might like the character to begin with might be because they relate to that character. And the reason they relate to the character might be because of their race, sexuality or disability.


And that is fine. If this is about who deserves to be in Smash and such, well who deserves to be in Smash is already super vague at this point it no longer matters. But I think appealing to a big crowd is important, which representation helps with.


It's not that dissimilar to people saying Terry is great because he appeals to the South American crowd

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

DKC just got a showcase in a billion dollar movie and is getting a theme park attraction. The IP is not remotely dead, and if I had to guess the hold-up for a new game has something to do with Retro Studios being stuck in dev hell on Metroid Prime 4 for the last six years. Wait... seven years.

At that point, it makes sense for Nintendo to handle it in house like people have been speculating. I'm curious what could come from that, or if those rumors held any weight. I do think a new DKC is imminent though, it's really just a matter of when.

Oh, and after Smash Ultimate they'd kind of be insane not to bring back King K. Rool. I hope they hear the call, not a guarantee but it would be baffling.

Retro has been working on Prime 4 for "only" five years, after its development got restarted.

Anyways 10 years without a game is completely bonkers for a series that pulls DKC's numbers. To me it's abundantly clear at this point that for some reason they care about DK as a Mario character/DKC as a brand, but not necessarily about DK as a videogame series.
The rumors about the alleged internally developed game also sound crazy to me. It's time for a new 3d Mario, if Nintendo has been working on a platformer it's going to be that.

K. Rool in Smash also doesn't mean much, he's just a Ballot character. If Foreman Spike got more votes than him, he'd be playable in place of K. Rool. DKC has never gotten a particularly good treatment in Smash either anyways, while Nintendo has no qualms in using it to push other series.

We'll get a new Mario VS Donkey Kong on Switch 2 with a Rambi cameo and we'll like it

 

[Schnee117]

This is why this is important btw

I cannot stress enough how important it is that when it comes to issues around diversity that the straights, the whites, the Cisgenders and anyone else that's privileged enough to be represented at large please sit down, shut up and listen instead of trying to shoot it down.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Alrighty, then let's put things in the perspective of smash.

At the end of the day, people want a character in Smash, because they like the character. And the reason they like the character to begin with is because they relate to that character. And the reason they relate to the character might be because of their race, sexuality or disability.


And that is fine. If this is about who deserves to be in Smash and such, well who deserves to be in Smash is already super vague at this point it no longer matters. But I think appealing to a big crowd is important, which representation helps with.


It's not that dissimilar to people saying Terry is great because he appeals to the South American crowd

But Terry is an important character in video game history and that is what Smash Bros is overall centered around; video game history. He just so happens to appeal to the South American crowd but that obviously wasn't the reason he was picked for that.

If people want an iconic character that just happens to be black or LGBT or whatever, then that's a different story. I can accept that. But wanting a character just because of their race, or sexuality, or disability? There's plenty of characters like that and there's nothing with looking for that but that doesn't mean they should be in Smash and that's the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[RileyXY1]

Do you guys think that Sakurai would go for a starter for the third time in a row, or do you think he would go for something different this time around in regards to the Pokémon newcomer?

 

[Schnee117]

Do you guys think that Sakurai would go for a starter for the third time in a row, or do you think he would go for something different this time around in regards to the Pokémon newcomer?

It depends on what he gets shown and what ideas he has.
Incineroar wasn't picked because it was a starter. It got picked because Sakurai was able to see it early and he wanted to do a wrestling moveset. He could get shown a non-starter he has some ideas for and go with that.