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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

MBRedboy31

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I understand why I'm seeing so many people advocate for this, but I understand why they didn't do it too. That'd probably be pretty insane reach for a dair without making it weirdly short or noticeably reeled back, but I've seen a mod that changes Ridley's Down B to strike downward in the air so maybe that would be a good compromise? Because I agree that some sort of tail strike from above is missing from Ridley's essence but I feel it may be difficult to balance.

Maybe as long as it doesn't spike, you can have it so that it pops opponents up at an angle so it creates more of a combo starter scenario. Because otherwise that'd be a pretty busted offstage tool.
I don’t think it’d be a problem IMO. I don’t see people complaining about :ultmegaman: dair, or about Chibi-Robo’s dair in Smash Flash 2, since these are moves with a lot of downward range but very little horizontal range, so you have to be very precise with your aim to dunk people with them. I’d imagine that Ridley’s tail would have an active hurtbox during the move’s endlag as well, so you’re likely going to be hit by your opponent’s recovery on whiff if their recovery has a hitbox.
 

Sucumbio

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Give Ridley a similar pin to Corrin side b on his down b and if you side b while it's still pinned he scrapes like in his Boss Battle from Brawl


Even the pros think about Ultimate being Ported lol but I still think it's unlikely compared to a new entry.
 
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Will

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Roy is not decloned from Marth. He's just less of a clone than he was. Just like Ganondorf.
If he’s less than a clone, an Echo, then how can he be one now? Are you really suggesting they revert him back to his Melee state, where even back then he couldn’t qualify as an Echo by today’s standards? :roymelee:
 

Will

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I don't necessarily want Ridley's down air to be the pogo tail, but he really should have a functional move in place of what he has now.
Pogo tail feels like a natural fit
Why not have it be the down input for his recovery when in the air, and bounce off if it hits the ground? I like the stylish stomp, but a stylish reference is also acceptable.
 
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NintenRob

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I know the pogo tail is a significant part of Ridleys attack in the sprite based games but I feel like one of the reasons we don't see it is because it would look extremely awkward on a 3D model.

I don't think he's ever done that attack when a 3D model is involved, closest would just be stabbing at the ground while flying.
 

Louie G.

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closest would just be stabbing at the ground while flying
I've been thinking it over and I think this would be the best option, with his Down B receiving a new animation and function midair to strike downward with a long startup. Since as is, that move is kinda awkward in the air. Instead of the current effect of rendering the opponent helpless you'd have a strong meteor effect with less max damage. As such the startup would also be shorter but still relatively long.

So just a piercing downward thrust of the tail that covers significant range, with the downside being a small sweetspot and similarly being highly telegraphed. Lets him stall in the air too but he can only use it once UNLESS he hits the opponent in which he receives a slight pogo effect and the opportunity to strike again. You probably won't hit it twice in a row though unless you manage some insane tech chase, you're better off using an aerial to follow up off a meteor on a grounded opponent.

If they implemented this, I'm not sure what I'd change the dair to if anything. I'm not the biggest advocate of stall and falls but I don't mind it too much. I do wish Ridley was better at striking from above since that's kind of his thing but I suppose powerful, high risk attacks with heavy commitment are fitting because you have to be smart with how you land.
 
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CannonStreak

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Something I dislike about smash ultimate is that final smashes no longer creative and fun as they all just become cutscenes I hope they revert many final smash back to how we were able to control them
I did not mind the Final Smashes the way they were in Ultimate, but I would honestly love it even more if you could control the character while they were doing a Final Smash as you said. I miss trying to use skill to control Super Sonic.
 

DarthEnderX

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If he’s less than a clone, an Echo, then how can he be one now? Are you really suggesting they revert him back to his Melee state, where even back then he couldn’t qualify as an Echo by today’s standards?
No. Like I already explained, they should expand what qualifies as an Echo.

As long as a Fighter's moveset is still based on another Fighter's moveset, they should be labeled as Echoes. That includes Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy, etc.


Chrom, gets a completely new moveset. Lucina gets a variation of that moveset and becomes Chrom's Echo. Roy, as he is now, gets relabeled as Marth's Echo.

That way, we have 2 Marths, and 2 Chroms. Instead of 4 Marths.

Honestly though, I feel like it's a waste of time arguing about clones in 2024. You either get it / accept it or you don't.
I accept them...when they are called Echoes. That is the only way I'll accept them.
 
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Gorgonzales

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Something I dislike about smash ultimate is that final smashes no longer creative and fun as they all just become cutscenes I hope they revert many final smash back to how we were able to control them
I agree. I've already said my piece about hating cinematic Final Smashes three, maybe four times.... to prevent myself from going insane from repeating myself, let me ask a related question (which could also serve as a fun creative exercise): what's your dream character's Final Smash?

For my most wanted character (Heavy), it's ÜberCharge. I'm picturing it functioning in Smash not too differently from its game of origin; Heavy calls in the Medic, who begins to heal the Heavy though a beam of energy from his Medigun. As soon as the healing beam connects, Medic activates ÜberCharge, rendering the Heavy invincible for the duration of the Final Smash, as Heavy's gun becomes crit-boosted and blasts a barrage of bullets so fast that it almost looks like a laser beam. The "laser" of bullets deals massive damage and knockback to whoever is in its way, and Heavy can angle the beam upward or downward while firing, even being able to turn around in the case that some enemies are fleeing behind him.

And of course, upon being rendered invincible, Heavy yells his most iconic Über line: "I AM BULLETPROOOOOOOOF!!"

 

DarthEnderX

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Something I dislike about smash ultimate is that final smashes no longer creative and fun as they all just become cutscenes I hope they revert many final smash back to how we were able to control them
They're way better now. The old ones completely destroyed match pacing for upwards of 20 seconds.

what's your dream character's Final Smash?
For Hayabusa, it'd probably be some DoA super move. But I'm not very familiar with DoA(does it even have super moves?).
 
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RileyXY1

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To me, the only characters that I would count as Echo Fighters are Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, and Dark Pit. There is something different about these four compared to the other clones. The other clones still have plenty of differences separating them from their base characters. Even Ken, Chrom, and Lucina, who the game counts as Echoes, have quite a bit of gameplay and playstyle differences from their base characters. Not these four. They are so similar to their base character and their differences are so small (and in some cases nonexistent) that they actually share their spot on the tier list with their base character. They are basically alternate costumes that have been given their own separate roster slots.
 

NintenRob

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Shorter Final Smashes were a bit of a necessary change with the inclusion of Final Smash meter and 8-player Smash. Now with those both combined, you can have players Spamming Final Smashes constantly going from one Final Smash, to the next.


It's a chaotic mess, but I honestly love playing that way.
 

Perkilator

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I agree. I've already said my piece about hating cinematic Final Smashes three, maybe four times.... to prevent myself from going insane from repeating myself, let me ask a related question (which could also serve as a fun creative exercise): what's your dream character's Final Smash?

For my most wanted character (Heavy), it's ÜberCharge. I'm picturing it functioning in Smash not too differently from its game of origin; Heavy calls in the Medic, who begins to heal the Heavy though a beam of energy from his Medigun. As soon as the healing beam connects, Medic activates ÜberCharge, rendering the Heavy invincible for the duration of the Final Smash, as Heavy's gun becomes crit-boosted and blasts a barrage of bullets so fast that it almost looks like a laser beam. The "laser" of bullets deals massive damage and knockback to whoever is in its way, and Heavy can angle the beam upward or downward while firing, even being able to turn around in the case that some enemies are fleeing behind him.

And of course, upon being rendered invincible, Heavy yells his most iconic Über line: "I AM BULLETPROOOOOOOOF!!"

For one of my more recent MW’s, Magolor, I envision him using a Black Hole to suck in every opponent in the vicinity and follow up with Magolor Cannon. Both of those attacks are super moves that he uses in the Magolor Epilogue, so I felt like combining the two into a single Final Smash.
 

NintenRob

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
 

Perkilator

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
  • Unique fighters
    • Waluigi
    • Raven Beak
    • Bandana Waddle Dee
    • Magolor
    • Noah & Mio
    • Ring Fit Trainee
    • Dr. Eggman
    • Chun-Li
    • Crash Bandicoot
  • Echoes
    • Dixie Kong
    • Alph
    • Shadow
 

Wonder Smash

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For Hayabusa, it'd probably be some DoA super move. But I'm not very familiar with DoA(does it even have super moves?).
They do in the more recent games but for Hayabusa? He's got this:



Art of the True Inferno.
 
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DarthEnderX

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes
I don't like predicting, because it means putting characters I don't want on the list. I like wishlisting:
  1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
  2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
  3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
  4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
  5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
  6. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
  7. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
  8. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
  9. Kazuma Kiryu [Yakuza]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]

They do in the more recent games but for Hayabusa? He's got this:
Approved.
 
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Diddy Kong

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
1. Dixie Kong
2. Isaac
3. Impa
4. Noah
5. Raven Beak
6. Bandana Dee
7. Geno
8. Alear
9. Monster Hunter
Echoes:
10. Funky Kong
11. Octoling
12. Galactia Knight
 

Diddy Kong

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Don't see you here very often Diddy........ You have an Impa search up don't you? :p
No I actually don't! Am here all the time when am on here, which I admit is not too often anymore. Actually it's kinda weird we got literally nothing to discuss for so long!
 

7NATOR

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
On the Echo Part, I actually think Echoes might not be a thing in the next Game, or at the very least I doubt heavy presence of them

Anyway for 12 Newcomers I think are in, the base roster Anyway


1. Geno
2. Sans
3. Reimu
4. Ryu Hayabusa
5. Sol Badguy
6. Rayman
7. Monokuma
8. Shadow
9. Alucard
10. Zero
11. Gran/Djeeta
12. Estelle
 

HyperSomari64

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes
1. Bomberman
2. Garchomp (Pokémon)
3. Etna (Disgaea)
4. Tifa Lockhart (Final Fantasy)
5. Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
6. Shadow (Echo: Sonic)
7. Officer (Astral Chain)
8. Impa (Echo: Sheik)
9. Alear (Fire Emblem)
10. Louie (Echo: Olimar)
11. Waluigi (Mario)
12. A Hyperdimension Neptunia composite character with the four main CPUs being alts for each one.
This last one sounds kinda dumb considering their human forms differ in height and Vert's...eh...let's say it's just a bad idea.
 

CommanderZaktan

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
1. Bandana Waddle Dee
2. Crash Bandicoot
3. Ryu Hayabusa
4. Glee Club
5. a Pokemon (Eevee, Cinderace, Meowscarada, Gholdengo)
6. Noah
7. Akira Howard
8. Mii Mage
9. Ayumi Tachibana
Echoes
Mio (echo of Noah)
Octoling (echo of Inkling)
Impa (Echo of Sheik)
 

Will

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No. Like I already explained, they should expand what qualifies as an Echo.

As long as a Fighter's moveset is still based on another Fighter's moveset, they should be labeled as Echoes. That includes Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy, etc.

Chrom, gets a completely new moveset. Lucina gets a variation of that moveset and becomes Chrom's Echo. Roy, as he is now, gets relabeled as Marth's Echo.

That way, we have 2 Marths, and 2 Chroms. Instead of 4 Marths.
From being brushed off as a hypothetical Ike clone that wasn’t unique enough, then made as a Roy clone, to then being made unique from the ground-up.

Chrom fans haven’t stopped winning since 2018. :4pacman:
 

DarthEnderX

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Chrom fans haven’t stopped winning since 2018.
I picked Chrom to be fully decloned over Roy simply because...Lucina SHOULD be Chrom's Echo, not Marth's. They're father/daughter, they're from the same game, they wield the same sword. They're way more linked to each other than they are to Marth or Roy.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Chrom never had a chance to get in beyond an Echo, really. He's lucky Roy came back at the time. He might've not even been his Echo if Roy was brought back as more clone-y first in Ultimate. He was denied access for being too similar to Marth and Ike(which Roy actually has enough bits and pieces that he's practically a fusion of both enough for him to be easy for Chrom to Echo off of). And he plays pretty well, especially since he has a really nice changed-up Up B.

Besides that, Lucina only got in because she was an alt for Marth at first. She had no ties realistically to Chrom when it came to anything related to Smash development. Her situation made it quite impossible for that to come up. Dressing like Marth is pretty much why she was designed to be an alt in Smash at the start. Her fighting style was not relevant at all to the reasoning. Robin was ultimately the only one who was chosen purely on their own merits. Luck wasn't really involved(or any special situations). Even if Chrom somehow got into Smash 4 instead of Robin... Lucina still would've most likely been designed as a Marth alt since that was the point behind her inclusion. She was a cute Marth lookalike in Smash. That's the reason she's the Echo of him, not Chrom. And not just cause Chrom obviously had no chance to have his own Echo here.

As cool as it would be to change up some clone-related stuff, circumstances heavily dictate how things go. Honestly, I'm just glad Chrom could even make it in. Same with Lucina. There's also characters like Dark Samus who desperately need more changes than Lucina or Chrom, who actually play pretty differently thanks to how their mechanics work. Dark Samus, Daisy, Richter, and maybe Dark Pit could use some more changes. The other Echoes are pretty well done in terms of making them feel different.
 

Lionfranky

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Something I dislike about smash ultimate is that final smashes no longer creative and fun as they all just become cutscenes I hope they revert many final smash back to how we were able to control them
Master Chief drives a warthog, and you get to take a gunner seat in FPS view to shoot target.
Agumon would either digivolve into Wargreymon or Omegamon. I prefer Wargreymon as transformation final smash. As Wargreymon, the player can slash and performs Brave Tornado during this phase. Wargreymon can fly, negating fall. Before Final Smash is finished, Wargreymon drops Gaia Force which nukes the stage.
 

NintenRob

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So out of curiosity, I decided to compile a list of every character who has and hasn't been in a CG trailer since Smash Wii U was first shown off and I found the list very interesting. I'm not counting appearances in their own CG reveal and I'm not counting Sora's reveal since that included every first party character anyway

Here's the list
Yoshi
Ness
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Pichu
Young Link
Roy
Wario
Lucas
R.O.B.
Wolf
Toon Link
Pac-Man
Robin
Lucina
Ryu
Corrin
Daisy
Dark Samus
Isabelle
Incineroar
Ken
Piranha Plant
Joker
Terry
Byleth
Steve
Sephiroth
Pyra and Mythra
Kazuya
Sora

Now some notes

  • Pac-Man is probably the most surprising one in general. His own trailer barely had any CG to begin with and he never showed up later in another characters reveal. Despite, his trailer kept Mr. Game & Watch off the list.
  • Peach barely scraped by. Her only CG appearance is as a racer in Rosalina's trailer. That's it. Conversely, Rosalina herself appears semi often.
  • Snake and Simon barely scraped by as well, showing up in the World of Light crowd. Though Snake got a gag with his Box
  • Marth is the only Fire Emblem character to truly appear in any CG cutscenes. Though I left Chrom off the list because of his appearance in Robin and Lucina's reveal trailer. It's technically not his reveal so why not count it lol.
  • It took until Kazuya for Ganondorf to show up in CG glory
  • Though, you could count his appearance in K Rools trailer, but that's just art so personally, I don't. That's why Wolf is on the list
  • Though Incineroar doesn't show up in another CG until Sora, he does actually get a more visible spot in that trailer, Sephiroth is also notable for being one of two third party characters in that trailer.
  • Sephiroths trailer got quite a few characters off the list, such as Banjo, Hero and Richter.
  • Ryu doesn't have any CG appearances at all. Since his own reveal didn't have CG.

Could be an interesting look at who has priority and who doesn't, though realistically it probably doesn't mean much.
 

Mamboo07

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So out of curiosity, I decided to compile a list of every character who has and hasn't been in a CG trailer since Smash Wii U was first shown off and I found the list very interesting. I'm not counting appearances in their own CG reveal and I'm not counting Sora's reveal since that included every first party character anyway

Here's the list
Yoshi
Ness
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Pichu
Young Link
Roy
Wario
Lucas
R.O.B.
Wolf
Toon Link
Pac-Man
Robin
Lucina
Ryu
Corrin
Daisy
Dark Samus
Isabelle
Incineroar
Ken
Piranha Plant
Joker
Terry
Byleth
Steve
Sephiroth
Pyra and Mythra
Kazuya
Sora

Now some notes

  • Pac-Man is probably the most surprising one in general. His own trailer barely had any CG to begin with and he never showed up later in another characters reveal. Despite, his trailer kept Mr. Game & Watch off the list.
  • Peach barely scraped by. Her only CG appearance is as a racer in Rosalina's trailer. That's it. Conversely, Rosalina herself appears semi often.
  • Snake and Simon barely scraped by as well, showing up in the World of Light crowd. Though Snake got a gag with his Box
  • Marth is the only Fire Emblem character to truly appear in any CG cutscenes. Though I left Chrom off the list because of his appearance in Robin and Lucina's reveal trailer. It's technically not his reveal so why not count it lol.
  • It took until Kazuya for Ganondorf to show up in CG glory
  • Though, you could count his appearance in K Rools trailer, but that's just art so personally, I don't. That's why Wolf is on the list
  • Though Incineroar doesn't show up in another CG until Sora, he does actually get a more visible spot in that trailer, Sephiroth is also notable for being one of two third party characters in that trailer.
  • Sephiroths trailer got quite a few characters off the list, such as Banjo, Hero and Richter.
  • Ryu doesn't have any CG appearances at all. Since his own reveal didn't have CG.

Could be an interesting look at who has priority and who doesn't, though realistically it probably doesn't mean much.
Kind of surprising that Yoshi hasn't made a SINGLE appearance in CGI.

(Got replaced by Pit in Smash 4's trailer)
 

Geno Boost

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12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

  1. Bandana Dee
  2. Skull Kid
  3. Magolor
  4. Pauline
  5. Dixie Kong
  6. Isaac
  7. Gholdengo
  8. Shadow*
  9. Hayabusa
  10. Octoling
  11. Impa*
  12. Jeanne*
1. insert Golden sun or chibi-robo or famicom detective club or advance wars rep
2. retro rep either Sukapon or Takamaru
3. Bomberman
4. Monster Hunter
5. Tetromino or ryu hayabusa or rayman
6. Ring Fit Trainee
7. Octoling as echo
8. Skull kid or any zelda rep
9. Ditto or any pokemon rep
10. Waluigi or Toad
11. shadow as echo
12. jin kazama as echo
 

Amornal1

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May 15, 2023
Messages
76
1. insert Golden sun or chibi-robo or famicom detective club or advance wars rep
2. retro rep either Sukapon or Takamaru
3. Bomberman
4. Monster Hunter
5. Tetromino or ryu hayabusa or rayman
6. Ring Fit Trainee
7. Octoling as echo
8. Skull kid or any zelda rep
9. Ditto or any pokemon rep
10. Waluigi or Toad
11. shadow as echo
12. jin kazama as echo
Nah, Jin kazama and shadow would be semi clones like isabelle

  • Unique fighters
    • Waluigi
    • Raven Beak
    • Bandana Waddle Dee
    • Magolor
    • Noah & Mio
    • Ring Fit Trainee
    • Dr. Eggman
    • Chun-Li
    • Crash Bandicoot
  • Echoes
    • Dixie Kong
    • Alph
    • Shadow
Unique fighters:
1.- Ring fit trainee.
2.- Octoling.
3.- Bandana Dee.
4.- Dixie Kong.
5.- Sylux.
6.- Noah.
7.- New Gen 10 Pokémon.
8.- Monster Hunter.
9.- Ryu Hayabusa.
Echo Fighters:
10.- Funky Kong.
11.- Alph.
12.- Jeanne.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RileyXY1

Smash Hero
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Jun 8, 2016
Messages
7,204
I'm not expecting a Gen 10 Pokémon due to timing issues, as there's a possibility that we don't get Gen 10 until 2026, but we get the next Smash game in 2025, thus leading to another Roy situation.
 

Amornal1

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I'm not expecting a Gen 10 Pokémon due to timing issues, as there's a possibility that we don't get Gen 10 until 2026, but we get the next Smash game in 2025, thus leading to another Roy situation.
I think that smash 6 will be at 2026.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Nah, Jin kazama and shadow would be semi clones like isabelle
Isabelle was mainly a semi-clone because she had a fundamentally different bodyshape from Villager. She could've otherwise been closer to Ken, an Echo, but with some distinct moves. That or a regular clone like Dr. Mario with very distinct moves, but still borrows a lot from Villager. The main thing is that since she can't use the exact same bodyshape, she has to be less clone-y no matter what.

Shadow doesn't suffer from this issue and can easily be a Chrom-like one with a distinct move while still being pretty accurate. Jin I'm not sure could do the same moves, as the mechanic for Kazuya isn't just the alternate attacks(which might be difficult to work with anyway), but the devil form. If both can be done, it's possible. But it's a lot of work for one Echo too. A lot more than other Echoes. So it's unlikely due more to that than anything else.

Also, please try to avoid double posting. You can quote multiple messages at once to avoid this issue. :)
 
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