Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Waluigi fans were not the only fans who harassed Sakurai.

We have to stop using that excuse for JUST him. Fans of all sorts have done terrible things. Including fans of characters who were included.

K. Rool's fanbase in particular doesn't have clean hands. Remember even TvTropes acknowledged this a while back under "Vocal Minority".

"Most of the DKC fandom is fairly peaceable and gets along well with other Nintendo fandoms, and is always happy to share memories and memes from their series. One wouldn't know this from looking at King K. Rool's extremely vocal cult following in the Super Smash Bros. fandom, which has been known to not only attack other franchises, but also Donkey Kong Country games that don't feature K. Rool (even deriding the widely-loved Snowmads just for not being the Kremlings)."


And this was well before he got in and then when he did, they harshly attacked the Ashley fanbase since she was shown as an Assist at the same time, making torture and guro art.

 

[Gengar84]

I think some of these people need to take a step back and chill. While we all love Smash here, at the end of the day it’s still just a game. There are far more important things in the world to get upset about. Even if your favorite character didn’t make it in this game, there’s always another chance in the future. It’s a waste of energy to throw a fit because you didn’t get a character you wanted. It makes you look very immature too. That’s how I see it anyways. To be clear, I’m not referring to anyone here now but the people that troll Sakurai or send threats over characters.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The real dark horse in the Toad Vs. discussion is the Switch era surge in notability Toadette has made.

I don't like to make points that someone is being "slept on" since that rarely ever works out when people claim it, but people really are sleeping on Toadette with a Super Crown gimmick. That seems like something Sakurai would find interest in implementing.

 

[dream1ng]

Well I don’t see him coming around to Waluigi either when people on Twitter harassed him with Offensive Memes after he was made an Assist Trophy for the third time.

You think getting a few unwelcome, inappropriate comments (that he might've not even read) on twitter made him pout so hard he's taking it out, six years later, on the actual character? He's a grown ass man that is more than familiar with the hysteria of the Smash fanbase.

Also keep in mind that it’s now or never for Geno and those three have already gotten in. And they got in before the Remake.

1) It's not now or never for Geno. Assuming his popularity endures as long as he doesn't get in, he'll keep having a chance.
2) Those three were examples of bigger names continually getting in over Geno, despite Sakurai's comments. And the list of bigger names isn't ended.
3) The remake helps his chances but it doesn't eliminate the undesirable aspects on the business side. The remake hasn't made him a bigger character than all the remaining much bigger characters. They'd still have to forego much more prolific names if they chose Geno.

I’m not suggesting Geno for DOC because that’s dumb, but Base Game? Yeah both parties opting in for Base Game Geno feels likely when Sakurai, Fans, and likely corporate after the Remake, would want him in.

Mario isn't one of the series Nintendo promotes with Smash. Directly, at least. Let alone one of the spin-offs, which have a hard enough time getting content. You're just leaning on it because that's how Geno has his best chance. But it doesn't align with how things usually work.

I mean, Nintendo is now going to care about promoting a remake of a Mario spin-off on what will be their previous console? Come on. If Geno gets in, it will not be to promote this game. Because this isn't the kind of game Nintendo promotes. This game helps because it removes one of the things that was hindering Geno's chances: dormancy.

More over, Square is probably going to want their characters as DLC. They really seem to prefer that. Past the fact that if a character is third-party, them showing up as DLC instead of base is just... an entirely plausible outcome. Sakurai and Nintendo aren't going to die on the hill of putting Geno in base if Square doesn't want it, it would give Square more leverage than is worth just making him DLC. Not like Geno is part of some EiH.

And this is coming from me. I used to be the Number 1 Geno Hater and would taunt his fans because I thought he would never happen. But since Mario RPG got a Remake somehow, I do genuinely see Geno getting in, which is shocking.

Yeah his chances have definitely improved, but that doesn't mean every argument for him holds weight.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Waaaait a minute didn't you want Albert Wesker!?

I mean...if RE ever got to, like, 2-3 Smash characters, sure. But he certainly shouldn't be the first RE character in Smash.

There's tons more villains I'd love to get into Smash, but not as the first character in their series. There's only a few series where I think the villain makes sense as the 1st pick(SoulCalibur, Diablo, etc.)

I mean I will say the next Mario Character will most likely be Geno and y’all are lying to yourselves if you’re thinking Waluigi or Toad are getting in first after Mario RPG’s Remake.

I definitely wouldn't call him a lock or anything, but I do think he's more likely.

why waste a character on an alt? hasn't enough character been resigned to that fate?

If they play the same, even in their own series, what reason is there to give them a different moveset in Smash?

with the way it’s been done so far it really doesn’t seem like any of the alt characters are really playable. alph having the wrong ship and it feeling like you’re playing the clown car jr and the driver is a decoration. little things perhaps but still bugs me

The alternative was you not getting to play those characters at all. The Koopalings were never going to each get their own Fighter.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The protagonists are boring.

Put in Nemesis instead.

Never mind that there'd be CERO issues to maintain an A rating

 

[Opossum]

The really dumb thing about the "Waluigi fans harassed Sakurai so now he'll never get included" narrative is like...

...it was literally two Twitter posts from Literal Nobodies. Back during Smash 4, there were more people in the Rayman thread on this very website making public death threats towards ArtsyOmni for the fake Rayman leak than there were Waluigi fans who "harassed Sakurai on Twitter."

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The really dumb thing about the "Waluigi fans harassed Sakurai so now he'll never get included" narrative is like...

...it was literally two Twitter posts from Literal Nobodies. Back during Smash 4, there were more people in the Rayman thread on this very website making public death threats towards ArtsyOmni for the fake Rayman leak than there were Waluigi fans who "harassed Sakurai on Twitter."

And wasn't it just tasteless 9/11 jokes anyway as opposed to actually threatening Sakurai?

 

[DarthEnderX]

people really are sleeping on Toadette with a Super Crown gimmick. That seems like something Sakurai would find interest in implementing.

It's not really that interesting on it's own. She uses the crown and then she...what? Just plays like Peach?


Now, make the Super Crown into an item that anyone can use? Even if it just makes them play like Peach for a limited time, it'd still be fun to see 80+ Peach variants.

Bonus: You could then take those assets and reuse them for Demitri's Midnight Bliss.

 

[dream1ng]

The really dumb thing about the "Waluigi fans harassed Sakurai so now he'll never get included" narrative is like...

...it was literally two Twitter posts from Literal Nobodies. Back during Smash 4, there were more people in the Rayman thread on this very website making public death threats towards ArtsyOmni for the fake Rayman leak than there were Waluigi fans who "harassed Sakurai on Twitter."

"Sakurai, how do you feel about the people who sent you death threats after the Waluigi AT reveal?"
Sakurai: "they did what?"

The whole thing also assumes that Sakurai even read these two (presumably English) tweets among everything he was inundated with during the massive E3 Ultimate deluge that also had all of EiH and the Ridley reveal. During which he was also doing press for the game. Plus, wasn't that official Ultimate tourney happening around then that Sakurai attended? Dude was busy as ****.

So yeah, pretty slim chance, if you ask me. If anything it's probably likelier he heard about the WaPo article about Waluigi because... for some reason the WaPo wrote an article about Waluigi, which is weird, but definitely more notable.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It's not really that interesting on it's own. She uses the crown and then she...what? Just plays like Peach?

No, a hybrid of her own moves and Peach's. The gimmick being the Crown appears in matches Toadette is present and if she gets it, she becomes Peachette while someone else grabbing it just makes it disappear and she has to wait until it spawns again.

Now, make the Super Crown into an item that anyone can use? Even if it just makes them play like Peach for a limited time, it'd still be fun to see 80+ Peach variants.

Absolutely not.

Bonus: You could then take those assets and reuse them for Demitri's Midnight Bliss.

Especially absolutely not.

 

[Sucumbio]

I see what you did there.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

There are better outlets to get your Bowsette fix than trying to make it a thing in Smash.

 

[Will]

I think it’s silly to believe that something toxic supporters have done online pseudonymously, years ago, can harm the chances of a specific character’s chances to get in Smash.

Do you blame violent videogames for the violence going on in the world, too?

There are better outlets to get your Bowsette fix than trying to make it a thing in Smash.

Homie casually posting euphemisms

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I can't see why Square wouldn't let Nintendo use Geno, if they want him, just because they also have more mainstream characters. Microsoft gave them Banjo and it worked out pretty well.

In fact there was no rhyme nor reason to Ultimate's fan requested characters. A semi-retired side character from a Nintendo series, a Disney property, a character belonging to the competition who hadn't gotten a game in ten years, a 3rd party character from a series with only two games featuring torture and nudity where the main character herself strips naked in order to attack, then another 3rd party character from a series that, while iconic, has seen better days, and last but not least a character Sakurai was dead sure couldn't work as a fighter.
It felt like if people wanted them, they got them! No questions asked.
Which has been very cool tbh

 

[Will]

I can't see why Square wouldn't let Nintendo use Geno, if they want him, just because they also have more mainstream characters. Microsoft gave them Banjo and it worked out pretty well.

In fact there was no rhyme nor reason to Ultimate's fan requested characters. A semi-retired side character from a Nintendo series, a Disney property, a character belonging to the competition who hadn't gotten a game in ten years, a 3rd party character from a series that, while iconic, has seen better days, and last but not least a character Sakurai was dead sure couldn't work as a fighter.
It felt like if people wanted them, they got them! No questions asked.
Which has been very cool tbh

If they can put Minecraft in Smash, I really believe Sakurai is capable of creating anything for a platform fighter.

 

[CannonStreak]

K. Rool's fanbase in particular doesn't have clean hands. Remember even TvTropes acknowledged this a while back under "Vocal Minority".

"Most of the DKC fandom is fairly peaceable and gets along well with other Nintendo fandoms, and is always happy to share memories and memes from their series. One wouldn't know this from looking at King K. Rool's extremely vocal cult following in the Super Smash Bros. fandom, which has been known to not only attack other franchises, but also Donkey Kong Country games that don't feature K. Rool (even deriding the widely-loved Snowmads just for not being the Kremlings)."


And this was well before he got in and then when he did, they harshly attacked the Ashley fanbase since she was shown as an Assist at the same time, making torture and guro art.

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

 

[Gengar84]

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

I was a big supporter of K. Rool too and he was my ballot pick. I’ve never gone after anyone for wanting a different character than I do.

 

[CannonStreak]

I was a big supporter of K. Rool too and he was my ballot pick. I’ve never gone after anyone for wanting a different character than I do.

Good to know. Like I said, I did not see many here do that, if any.

To say that all K. Rool fans or even most of them, to me, would be generalizing.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

I have personally seen plenty of it firsthand, so no, I'd say the fact it's acknowledged somewhere is apt even if people want to hide that history.
There's a reason I stopped supporting K. Rool shortly after the Mii Costume reveal.

While I can be glad to see him, I will never forget what caused me to jump ship.
But the point is, people shouldn't be so quick to say Waluigi won't get in because of the fanbase when the K. Rool fanbase is an example of that not meaning anything.

 

[dream1ng]

I can't see why Square wouldn't let Nintendo use Geno, if they want him, just because they also have more mainstream characters. Microsoft gave them Banjo and it worked out pretty well.

People always put the blame with the third-party...

It's more about Nintendo, the company who chooses the characters, noting there are much more prolific options under Square than a character who resonates very little outside the fanbase, just as they have three times before.

People equate Banjo and Geno but Banjo is significantly more prolific, being the eponymous lead of a once-successful series.

But now that you mention it, yeah, Square might also have reservations because they get a back-end on these characters and they might have a lot more confidence in a character with actual prevalence to make more money.

In fact there was no rhyme nor reason to Ultimate's fan requested characters. A semi-retired side character from a Nintendo series, a Disney property, a character belonging to the competition who hadn't gotten a game in ten years, a 3rd party character from a series that, while iconic, has seen better days, and last but not least a character Sakurai was dead sure couldn't work as a fighter.
It felt like if people wanted them, they got them! No questions asked.
Which has been very cool tbh

Every single original third-party included to date is more prolific than Geno, who even for first-party standards would be niche. The rhyme and reason is those characters all cast a much wider net than he does, and would appeal to a larger to much larger audience. If Geno gets in, a third-party that niche would be unprecedented.

And what do you mean no questions asked? They held a ballot, asking questions. They literally asked why do you want this character. Also, we have no idea which third-parties may not have panned out, because... if no one talks (which they probably wouldn't, as per NDAs) why would we?

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

This isn't the only place that talks about Smash on the internet.

 

[CannonStreak]

This isn't the only place that talks about Smash on the internet.

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

Read the bolded part. Your comment thus has no meaning now.

Next time you wanna be starting something, try harder.

I have personally seen plenty of it firsthand, so no, I'd say the fact it's acknowledged somewhere is apt even if people want to hide that history.
There's a reason I stopped supporting K. Rool shortly after the Mii Costume reveal.

While I can be glad to see him, I will never forget what caused me to jump ship.
But the point is, people shouldn't be so quick to say Waluigi won't get in because of the fanbase when the K. Rool fanbase is an example of that not meaning anything.

I still think you are generalizing. Not all K. Rool fans are as bad as what a single person adding what he said to a (key word) editable website says. Even then...

I think you were burned out from the days of Smash 4. The days of Ultimate were more tame than that, I believe. You can't attribute one's, or a small group of one fanbase's actions to everyone else in that fanbase.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I still think you are generalizing. Not all K. Rool fans are as bad as what a single person adding what he said to a (key word) editable website says. Even then...

I think you were burned out from the days of Smash 4. The days of Ultimate were more tame than that, I believe. You can't attribute one's, or a small group of one fanbase's actions to everyone else in that fanbase.

You keep missing the point to be defensive over K. Rool and try to downplay things like they didn't happen for....I don't quite get why.

The Waluigi fanbase's reputation isn't dissimilar to what became of the K. Rool fanbase. There have been rotten apples that have done heinous acts before and after he got in. But he got in regardless.
So among the reasons that Waluigi wouldn't get in, that would not be one of them. THAT is the point that is trying to be get across.

Trying to go "nuh-uh, that didn't happen" or "that's just generalizing" doesn't change the point being made.

 

[CannonStreak]

You keep missing the point to be defensive over K. Rool and try to downplay things like they didn't happen for....I don't quite get why.

The Waluigi fanbase's reputation isn't dissimilar to what became of the K. Rool fanbase. There have been rotten apples that have done heinous acts before and after he got in. But he got in regardless.
So among the reasons that Waluigi wouldn't get in, that would not be one of them. THAT is the point that is trying to be get across.

Trying to go "nuh-uh, that didn't happen" or "that's just generalizing" doesn't change the point being made.

I never said it didn't happen, but it is still generalizing, especially from that guy who edited what he said into TvTropes, which is not backed up by anything and that some things he said are just opinion. Plus, if K. Rool's fanbase were a vocal minority, how would he get into Smash Bros. Ultimate, anyhow? You can't always believe things you read on the net, especially on sites like TvTropes.

I know you have experienced some of it, even though it may have been limited to this site (I could be mistaken), but still, you can't attribute actions of one or more people to others within a fanbase. You seem to be missing the point.

 

[dream1ng]

Read the bolded part. Your comment thus has no meaning now.

It means not every statement about a fanbase you might be part of necessitates clarifying that you didn't engage in the untoward behavior, as that is what the assumption already is. Did you see anyone need to clarify they, in fact, did not send Sakurai any death threats regarding Waluigi?

No, people know these acts aren't carried out by the majority of the fanbase. That's the point.

Next time you wanna be starting something, try harder.

You know that would mean more if you didn't still respond.

 

[Will]

Hey, I don't recall seeing any of that much on this site. I mean, there may be more instances outside this site, but I have not done any of those things, not even attack Ashley fans. At least don't put me in that crowd.

And since when is TvTropes a good site to get information from, anyway?

It was here, too. The website being SFW means you didn’t get the see the true graphic/nasty side of things. I don’t really blame the people here, though. I know the dopamine rush of getting someone you wanted in the game. The rest of the internet had it worse, because over on forums there were text wars fought in the battle of Ashley vs K. Rool

Spoiler: *NSFW* The absolute worst thing that I saw during that time

They drew revenge porn of K. Rool and Ashley, dude. It was that bad.

 

[CannonStreak]

It means not every statement about a fanbase you might be part of necessitates clarifying that you didn't engage in the untoward behavior, as that is what the assumption already is. Did you see anyone need to clarify they, in fact, did not send Sakurai any death threats regarding Waluigi?

No, people know these acts aren't carried out by the majority of the fanbase. That's the point.


You know that would mean more if you didn't still respond.

First, it is called self-control, you might want to look into it.

And what is the point of what you said at the end of your first post? There is no harm for needing to give clarification, unlike needlessly trying to point out things like what you just did. Besides, we are talking K. Rool, not Waluigi here.

It was here, too. The website being SFW means you didn’t get the see the true graphic/nasty side of things. I don’t really blame the people here, though. I know the dopamine rush of getting someone you wanted in the game. The rest of the internet had it worse, because over on forums there were text wars fought in the battle of Ashley vs K. Rool

Spoiler: *NSFW* The absolute worst thing that I saw during that time

They drew revenge porn of K. Rool and Ashley, dude. It was that bad.

And I said I did not recall seeing MUCH.

I never said there was not any of that here.

 

[Will]

And I said I did not recall seeing MUCH.

I never said there was not any of that here.

Man, what do you mean by ‘much’? 1 post? 5 posts? 10 posts?

And you need to calm down. You’ll end up smitten if you escalate things with your tone

 

[Schnee117]

Besides, we are talking K. Rool, not Waluigi here.

You do realise that this whole thing stemmed from someone going "Waluigi won't get in because of toxic fans" with K Rool being the counterargument right? Please actually read what's being said.

 

[CannonStreak]

Man, what do you mean by ‘much’? 1 post? 5 posts? 10 posts?

And you need to calm down. You’ll end up smitten if you escalate things with your tone

From what? A text with no tone?

Believe me, I am calm. A bit cocky, maybe, but still calm, nonetheless?

Anyway, trust me, I meant out of more than 500 that weren't hostile. I won't deny seeing some bad things here and there, but either way, let's just assume there was 100000 more that were hostile.

Either way, I will admit, the number 500 in this case was that small.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

You seem to be missing the point.

Except, no.
The point always was about the reputation of what the fanbase might have done not being a valid reason for exclusion.

This whole conversation started by someone using the "death threats" from the Waluigi fanbase as means why Sakurai would exclude Waluigi.
And the counter to that was how even characters that DID get in had their problematic fans, which I used K. Rool as an example of this given what myself and others can remember members of the fanbase have legit done and the reputation they have garnered.

You coming in to defend K. Rool's fanbase and trying to downplay the actions because you yourself haven't seen it is completely irrelevant to the point being made.
Saying "that's generalizing" adds nothing to the conversation because THAT'S THE POINT. Waluigi fans gained a similar reputation by generalization over the bad apples and their actions. And yet, it DID NOT stop K. Rool in spite of things fans have done, so why would it stop Waluigi?

I don't know how much further I can break this down.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

To be honest if Sakurai cared that much about toxic fans he probably wouldn't be making video games at all, let alone Smash bros games. Every popular games got toxic fans and pretty much nobody cares about that aside from other fans. I've never heard of any video game director not adding stuff in a game because he was fed up with toxicity. If he want Waluigi he's going to add it, end of story.

 

[dream1ng]

First, it is called self-control, you might want to look into it.

...but you're still responding to a conversation you seemingly didn't want to start.

And what is the point of what you said at the end of your first post? There is no harm for needing to give clarification, unlike needlessly trying to point out things like what you just did. Besides, we are talking K. Rool, not Waluigi here.

The point is the argument you took issue with purposefully generalized the fanbase while focusing on the few instead of the majority because it was discrediting an earlier point which did the same. But responding to it by making it about your personal unfamiliarity and denial with the claims is exactly the point about selective experience applying to any character, which you're still looking past in order to minimize the allegations towards the K. Rool fanbase, and defend them, which isn't the actual counterpoint to the message Golden is conveying.

 

[CannonStreak]

You do realise that this whole thing stemmed from someone going "Waluigi won't get in because of toxic fans" with K Rool being the counterargument right? Please actually read what's being said.

No, but I was just stating an opinion, initially, on K. Rool. Even if I did not initially notice the Waluigi part, it extended to something more thanks to others responding to me (except GoldenYuiitusin, that is)

But yeah, I was just trying to state an opinion from the start.

Except, no.
The point always was about the reputation of what the fanbase might have done not being a valid reason for exclusion.

This whole conversation started by someone using the "death threats" from the Waluigi fanbase as means why Sakurai would exclude Waluigi.
And the counter to that was how even characters that DID get in had their problematic fans, which I used K. Rool as an example of this given what myself and others can remember members of the fanbase have legit done and the reputation they have garnered.

You coming in to defend K. Rool's fanbase and trying to downplay the actions because you yourself haven't seen it is completely irrelevant to the point being made.
Saying "that's generalizing" adds nothing to the conversation because THAT'S THE POINT. Waluigi fans gained a similar reputation by generalization over the bad apples and their actions. And yet, it DID NOT stop K. Rool in spite of things fans have done, so why would it stop Waluigi?

I don't know how much further I can break this down.

I was not defending defending the whole fanbase. In fact, if anything, I was defending, from the start, a small number of those people. I know what bad things a lot of both Waluigi fans and K. Rool fans have done, and even if I did not, I can imagine, so I was never going to deny that.

By the way, by small fanbase, which I was defending, I knew some K. Rool fans who were not as bad. I know there were people in the fanbase who did bad things, but still do feel like that (not you) the TvTropes poster was not doing that well with the generalizing, even if there was a large number of people doing so.

Let's now be safe, and end it here, meaning we'll just agree to disagree, shall we?

...but you're still responding to a conversation you seemingly didn't want to start.


The point is the argument you took issue with purposefully generalized the fanbase while focusing on the few instead of the majority because it was discrediting an earlier point which did the same. But responding to it by making it about your personal unfamiliarity and denial with the claims is exactly the point about selective experience applying to any character, which you're still looking past in order to minimize the allegations towards the K. Rool fanbase, and defend them, which isn't the actual counterpoint to the message Golden is conveying.

...Seriously? All I did was clarify something, and if you read above in this very post of mine to GoldenYuiitusin to see my intentions...

Just let it go. You are assuming again about me. Therefore, you did not know my intentions well.

 

[Mamboo07]

Spoiler: *NSFW* The absolute worst thing that I saw during that time

They drew revenge porn of K. Rool and Ashley, dude. It was that bad.

...Gross.

 

[CannonStreak]

...Gross.

I did know there were many that were capable of, or had done bad things in the K. Rool fanbase. That said, these fans in particular...

What is WRONG with these people?!

 

[Louie G.]

By the way, by small fanbase, which I was defending, I knew some K. Rool fans who were not as bad. I know there were people in the fanbase who did bad things, but still do feel like that (not you) the TvTropes poster was not doing that well with the generalizing, even if there was a large number of people doing so.

It's not an indictment on K. Rool as a character, or anyone who wanted him or anything. I wanted Ridley and K. Rool and I can admit the fans had a tendency to go off the rails every now and again. They were especially popular on this forum, many of the people you're talking to were probably on the frontlines for them. But it's that much easier to admit, as a fan, when people make it particularly difficult for you to stand with them. I agree that generalizing is bad but we're past that, nobody cares about if K. Rool fans are bad now because he's already in the game and most people already forgot.

I can't see why Square wouldn't let Nintendo use Geno, if they want him, just because they also have more mainstream characters. Microsoft gave them Banjo and it worked out pretty well.

I don't think that many people are using this argument against him anymore, at least not around here. It's really not so much a matter of Square letting them use Geno, I think that'd be easy as long as Nintendo is paying up and at least one of their pillars (FF, DQ) are represented. Whether or not Nintendo or Sakurai wants to is another story, but they've technically let them use Geno in some capacity for two games in a row.

The assertion was that Geno will get in over Waluigi, Toad or any other Mario character which is fundamentally flawed based on the way business with Square Enix has been handled up to this point. Which is to say SE likes to save new content for DLC, and that Mario characters more in line with the core brand are a better fit for base roster and are added in every game.

 

[CannonStreak]

It's not an indictment on K. Rool as a character, or anyone who wanted him or anything. I wanted Ridley and K. Rool and I can admit the fans had a tendency to go off the rails every now and again. They were especially popular on this forum, many of the people you're talking to were probably on the frontlines for them. But it's that much easier to admit, as a fan, when people make it particularly difficult for you to stand with them. I agree that generalizing is bad but we're past that, nobody cares about if K. Rool fans are bad now because he's already in the game and most people already forgot.

Thanks for understanding part of what I was saying, as it seems, especially on the generalizing thing. I always knew and had to keep in mind though that K. Rool fans can be and were bad.

I did not notice it much though, honestly, and I should have noticed it more when I should have.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

People always put the blame with the third-party...

It's more about Nintendo, the company who chooses the characters, noting there are much more prolific options under Square than a character who resonates very little outside the fanbase, just as they have three times before.

People equate Banjo and Geno but Banjo is significantly more prolific, being the eponymous lead of a once-successful series.

That's not what I meant, obviously Banjo was and is a bigger name than Geno. Just that he's not exactly the biggest Microsoft property, yet they got him in before anyone else, heck even before Steve himself.
If Nintendo wants to use Geno I can't see what's going to stop them. In Ultimate they probably just didn't, regardless of what other characters Square owns.

 

[dream1ng]

That's not what I meant, obviously Banjo was and is a bigger name than Geno. Just that he's not exactly the biggest Microsoft property, yet they got him in before anyone else, heck even before Steve himself.

Not like Mega Man is Capcom's biggest property either, but there's a level of "big" where the character is still going to resonate widely, and it's true that Banjo is not Microsoft's biggest character, but he's still not a good parallel against a character much smaller than him.

And it could also be because MS series like Halo and Gears have a fairly limited Japanese audience. Halo's was... ok, but never great. Minecraft doesn't have that problem, and Banjo, at least at one point, was very successful in Japan. They're exceptions.

It also shows that unlike MS, Nintendo has been more interested in Square's bigger series. Which gives an inauspicious precedent for Geno. So yes, good point. In comparison to some other companies, when it comes to Square, they've only gone for the bigger stuff so far.

If Nintendo wants to use Geno I can't see what's going to stop them. In Ultimate they probably just didn't, regardless of what other characters Square owns.

But the argument has never been Nintendo wouldn't be able to get Geno if they wanted him. Not from me, at least. If they want him, I assume they could probable get him.

It's the complicated, somewhat questionable business choice behind choosing him over others. It's whether they would want him, over other options.