Ness vs. Zelda

[Yink]

Ness Match-Up Rediscussion #2

Zelda vs. Ness​

Absorbable Projectiles: Yes

• Din's Fire: 13-25% heal

Normal Projectiles: No
Grab Release on Ness: Yes

• GR > Dtilt
  Spoiler

  (can become dtilt locked...dtilt doesn't always work but it has a high percentage of tripping)
  > Dsmash

The Zelda Board Match-Up Discussion: Click Me!
Zelda's Frame Data: Click Me!

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Terminology:

Spoiler

PKF = PK Fire
PKFL (PKFl) = PK Flash
PKT = PK Thunder (as the ball and tail itself)
PKT2 = PK Thunder 2 (where the ball has hit Ness, sending him flying)
PSIM - PSI Magnet
DAS = Double Aerial Shuffle...a technique used by Ness
AC = Auto-Cancel
SHAD = Short Hop Air Dodge
SH = Short Hop
FS = Footstool

Any other ones, like nair (Neutral Air) will not be explained, seeing as most people know what they mean. If you however don't know, just ask.

Summary:

Spoiler

Zelda:

Ness:

Match-Up Ratio:

• Old: 50:50

• New: discussing

*NOTE*: The purpose of this is to get a ratio as an approximation. The discussion for this thread is for the purpose of learning the match-up and what both sides can do or can't...it is not a thread for arguing if a ratio is 5 off or anything trivial.




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I hope we get a lot of feedback, I'm not very familiar with this match-up so it'll be a great experience. Mind your manners everyone.

 

[Darkmusician]

Frame date for Zelda is here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

 

[Yink]

Frame date for Zelda is here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

Thank you VERY much

 

[xoxokev]

zelda's usmash is a pain... don't both trying to airdodge or dair it

 

[Eagleye893]

SDI down into the ground and shield as soon as possible with the usmash... if you do it right, you land, get your shield up, and can possibly have a chance to get a dtilt trip or just some usmash or something.....

^sadly, I did this more when i was just starting than I can now... XD

Zelda's things do revolve around keeping grounded and using smashes a lot, but her aerials are good as well...

Don't try coming down with psi magnet unless you know what you're doing... might get uair'd, usmash'd.... anything will be bad.

watch out for well placed dins fires when pkt'ing.... if you're not careful, death.

Really, I can't help much... the latest zelda i played was a year or two ago, so my input is inaccurate....

I would hazard a guess as to say this will end up 55:45 ness.

 

[Bartolon]

Long time ago I played against a zelda (Jujux)
Ness his best bet is to stay in her face the whole time, and use alot nair..

Don't know much more atm =/

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i remember someone on the Zelda boards mentioning you could jab Ness Fair....but i've never tried this myself.

its been a long time since i've done this matchup from either side, i do remember keeping pressure on Zelda is important. i don't think you'll have to worry about GR shenanigans at all cause Zeldas grab is slow.

 

[oOTjayOo]

I played a good Zelda. AeroKaze. It was pretty easy. When he got me offstage it got harder. Never be to low to the bottom when outstage cuz Dins fire wins to me. Compared to what he did to me with Shiek I might say this matchup is like 60 40 Ness or somthing. I dont really see a 50 50.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

Some useful things for Ness to know:
If you hit and catch her with a PK Fire, don't approach sideways, as she can escape with Nayru's Love (which also turns the fire to her favor). However, Ness' short-hopped Dair will hit right through Nayru's (which has a blindspot at its top) and will also keep you safe from the 'reflected' PK Fire.

Dtilt has a high trip-rate and locks you pretty well, but you can always attempt an SDI (away from Zelda) to get out. Shielding while doing so might help as well. ALWAYS DI up after you're about to get hit by a follow-up move (which are mostly Dsmashes, Fsmashes, Dash Grabs or Dash Attacks). As for grab-release to Dtilt, try to DI away from her after the release and spotdodge. She can re-grab after a Dtilt trip which can lead into a Dtilt-inclusive semi-chain grab.

Your properly-spaced Fairs (a spaced Jab CAN beat it) out-prioritize most of her moves and make a useful approach and set-up starter. It will even beat high-priority moves like Nayru's Love (from behind even), penetrating right through the invincibility frames. In my opinion, knowing how to space this without getting punished is essential in this match-up.

Don't get fooled by Din's Fire. She can always still use it as a pressuring option, or to bait openings and absorbing-attempts. She can always predict a PSI-magnet attempt and cancel the Din's Fire. Offstage, occasionally letting yourself get hit by Din's Fire (WITH proper DI upward) might help you gain elevation and prevent possible gimps. Nonetheless she can pressure you extremely well with it offstage, so avoid being next or below the ledge (while far away from it). A mildly charged Din's can also break your PK Thunder (lol), and optionally she can jump in and reflect with Nayru's Love (which is risky so you won't have to expect it often).

Do NOT try to punish her perfectly spaced Fsmashes with anything but a PKFire or Fair OoS (which will at least stab her shield and sweep any possible openings). You'll most likely get punished if you try anything else. Her Ftilt actually hurts grounded approaches and can catch you out of some aerial approaches in this match-up since most of your attacks won't reach (and punish) the hurtbox on the move.

That's my two cents for this match-up. I might add some more stuff to it later, but this'll do for now. Also,

Don't try coming down with psi magnet unless you know what you're doing... might get uair'd, usmash'd.... anything will be bad.

This. I've seen so many Nesses Magnet Stall high up in midair whenever I approach them from below, and they always seem to get punished for it (lol Uair). High recoveries for Ness are also pretty dangerous, unless you're really fast lol.

 

[oOTjayOo]

the Zelda Jab > Fair thing is awsome xD even tho its a bad thing for me. I still play every other character and Ness in friendlies so the more the helpful.

Double Aireal shuffle should work great on Zelda close up.

Nair Uair. Zelda cannot punish this greatly I think

 

[HylianMageAuree]

the Zelda Jab > Fair thing is awsome xD even tho its a bad thing for me. I still play every other character and Ness in friendlies so the more the helpful.

Double Aireal shuffle should work great on Zelda close up.

Nair Uair. Zelda cannot punish this greatly I think

Short-hopped Nair to double jump Uair? Yeah I think with proper DI she can get out easily due to her lightweight and floatiness lol. She can just bait and anticipate the Uair, airdodge and punish with a double jump Nair of her own. You can still use it if the opportunity arises but try not to create any patterns. : 3

 

[oOTjayOo]

Short-hopped Nair to double jump Uair? Yeah I think with proper DI she can get out easily due to her lightweight and floatiness lol. She can just bait and anticipate the Uair, airdodge and punish with a double jump Nair of her own. You can still use it if the opportunity arises but try not to create any patterns. : 3

Nah. Nair Uair 1 short hop. Double air shuffle is 2 air moves 1 short hop

 

[Eagleye893]

Just say DAS nair>uair to specify that...

I agree with what auree has said so far though. But where there is an advantageous situation for Zelda, a skilled player with good DI can easily escape

usmash, fsmash, and nair for a fair or uair on the nair, usmash or utilt on the usmash, or pkfire (I prefer aerial) on fsmash.

Dtilt was a *****. I remember that from corms over here in IL... Just sdi well though and you can get out far enough to avoid some things, but as stated before, DI up afterwards.

Semi-predictable recovery on zelda's part. I almost always see where it is that my opponent will land and have plenty of room for punishing.

Watch for perfect spacing on those fair and bair... It's morale-crushing to see happen to you.

Pkt can pressure. If they reflect, you should have placed yourself in a spot to absorb it as it travels back to you.

Dins fire madness...

Other stuff... I still need a little refreshing.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

Nah. Nair Uair 1 short hop. Double air shuffle is 2 air moves 1 short hop

Oh, right. I forgot about Ness' aerial mobility O_O
Well, unless Zelda's Nair initiation frames out-prioritize his Uair at its start-up frames, I guess it could work unexpectedly. : 3

 

[oOTjayOo]

Hmm. I might try to play a Zelda somtime soon. I'll record it to help this discussion out.

 

[Uffe]

Zelda is pretty dangerous. Despite where she's at on the tier list, I still have reason to believe she's a good character anyway. Neither opponent needs to approach as one has the ability to reflect and the other the ability to absorb. It seems her smash attacks can't be DI'd out of. I could be wrong, though. Not that this attack should really be used against Zelda, but using PK Fire can simply be countered with Nayru's Love if she gets caught in it. Speaking of fire, if you get knocked off the stage, don't be afraid to use your PSI Magnet if Zelda uses her Din's Fire. If you're below stage level, take the hit so it'll knock you back further up and you'll have a better chance of recovery.

A good Zelda has a lot of tricks up her sleeve. From what I've seen, she can use Forore's Wind > fair/bair. Her dair is good at spiking, too. Her nair seems fairly good, and her fair/bair can out-do Ness' fair if it sweet-spots. Your best bet is to get her into the air since that's where Ness does best. Maybe DarkMusician can give a few pointers. Same with kennypu. They're both really good and they've played each other before.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

Neither opponent needs to approach as one has the ability to reflect and the other the ability to absorb.

This is too true, lol. Whenever I play this match-up it's all about the mindgames and occasional approaches from both sides, slowly racking up damage. It all comes down to who approaches and such, I think it's a pretty fun and also an even match-up.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Some useful things for Ness to know:
If you hit and catch her with a PK Fire, don't approach sideways, as she can escape with Nayru's Love (which also turns the fire to her favor). However, Ness' short-hopped Dair will hit right through Nayru's (which has a blindspot at its top) and will also keep you safe from the 'reflected' PK Fire.

thats never a fun situation to be in, you Nayrus you eat a Dair, you DI you eat Fair. :/
i remember prefering to DI the fire and rarely reflecting cause if nayrus is predicted you end up in the air.

Do NOT try to punish her perfectly spaced Fsmashes with anything but a PKFire or Fair OoS (which will at least stab her shield and sweep any possible openings). You'll most likely get punished if you try anything else. Her Ftilt actually hurts grounded approaches and can catch you out of some aerial approaches in this match-up since most of your attacks won't reach (and punish) the hurtbox on the move.

i think a running Usmash can be used as well.

This. I've seen so many Nesses Magnet Stall high up in midair whenever I approach them from below, and they always seem to get punished for it (lol Uair). High recoveries for Ness are also pretty dangerous, unless you're really fast lol.

its like Fox shine stalling, a high risk mindgame that shouldn't be used all the time

 

[oOTjayOo]

Lol starting to see the light of this matchup. It does look flat out even.

 

[Uffe]

I think in previous discussions the match-up was 55:45, Ness. Not that that really makes a huge advantage or disadvantage for either character. I can see it being even, though. I've played some pretty good Zelda's and with all due respect, they can be a bother. The character of course, not the player.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

thats never a fun situation to be in, you Nayrus you eat a Dair, you DI you eat Fair. :/
i remember prefering to DI the fire and rarely reflecting cause if nayrus is predicted you end up in the air.

This is true, however I was simply stating what Zelda could do if the situation occurs for the Nesses to watch out. :3

i think a running Usmash can be used as well.

Hmm, I'll compare frame data lol. Alright, Zelda can move again after 15 frames of Fsmash cooldown. Ness' Usmash seems to come out at about 10 frames, which leaves 5 frames of reaction time (not counting shield lag and stun from Fsmash). Sounds risky but plausible. Also, does his Hyphen Smash have more start-up lag?

And eh, it's really a pretty dead-even match-up. Just when you space aerials as Ness (such as Fair), always retreat or you might get caught by Dtilt OoS which will always be a pain if she re-uses it to lock.

 

[thesage]

From what I've read, Zelda loses to camp, so just camp and don't approach. That's what I do in melee vs. her as well. Din's fire is easy enough to dodge that I could do it.

If you have a lower percent than her don't be afraid to run the clock.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

This is true, however I was simply stating what Zelda could do if the situation occurs for the Nesses to watch out. :3

yes, i was mearly stating my opinion on it lol

Hmm, I'll compare frame data lol. Alright, Zelda can move again after 15 frames of Fsmash cooldown. Ness' Usmash seems to come out at about 10 frames, which leaves 5 frames of reaction time (not counting shield lag and stun from Fsmash). Sounds risky but plausible. Also, does his Hyphen Smash have more start-up lag?

im not sure, i just remember in the past i used it as a retaliation against Fsmash.

@thesage
on camping, yes. Zelda takes it hard from camping, but i never found PKT that difficult to manuver around to at least put me in a position when it would be risky to try it a second time w/o creating more space.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

yes, i was mearly stating my opinion on it lol

Darn, I completely misread your post! Sorry for the misunderstanding. XD

And eh, PK Fire camping won't really help (if you want it to hit), since you need to approach her for that . Once you do approach her, it'll be much easier for her to act and punish.

 

[xoxokev]

From what I've read, Zelda loses to camp, so just camp and don't approach. That's what I do in melee vs. her as well. Din's fire is easy enough to dodge that I could do it.

If you have a lower percent than her don't be afraid to run the clock.

lol, this.

(also, @HylianMageAuree: you can't really camp with pk fire, i think what thesage was talking about was camping with pkt... and psi magnet, if you're far enough, remembering to lag cancel)

 

[HylianMageAuree]

lol, this.

(also, @HylianMageAuree: you can't really camp with pk fire, i think what thesage was talking about was camping with pkt... and psi magnet, if you're far enough, remembering to lag cancel)

With PK Thunder? That makes no sense . _.
It'll just leave the Ness open, I don't see how it would even hit us (since it's so obvious).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

aiming to hit Zelda or her shield. preferably w/ the tail of PKT so it doesn't dissapear in one hit. sure its no laser, but it is a way to play keep away on Zelda somewhat if Ness is far enough way when preforming it.

its his way of saying "FU Zelda, im not fooled by sparkels!"

 

[thesage]

I was talking about camping with fair lolz.

 

[Eagleye893]

With PK Thunder? That makes no sense . _.
It'll just leave the Ness open, I don't see how it would even hit us (since it's so obvious).

"Oh, he's just using PKT... I'm perfectly safe to go ahead and punish him completely. There is absolutely nothing tha-- OMG WTF!!! WHERE DID THAT PKT2 COME FROM?!?!?!? FAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!"

yeah, that.... and also, using it correctly (not directly into shield, but rather scrape) and more as a shield poke type thing is what'd work best... if nayru's love, then loop around and hit at closing..... if you rush in, hit you or loop back to ness, the second option giving the thing in quotes...

Lesson learned: a smart player (such as shaky, smash64, vice, etc....) will never be predictable with the movement of the bolt and will most likely outsmart you with what they do with pkt.... There is more too it than "oh look, this thing is coming towards me; all i have to do is avoid it," because it is easy to control and keep from harming yourself....

 

[ViceGrip]

In my experience with this match up (in person it's Doppelganger and Awesome, online it's mainly Linkz and Maos) Zelda has great defensive options so you want to approach as little as possible. Zelda has poor offensive options so she will likely be approaching as little as possible as well. So it's a game of who can bait the other into approaching more. It's much safer to use projectiles on zelda than it is for her to use Din's fire because if she messes up with that then you get regained % but if you mess up you may get dash attacked or grabbed. Ideally if zelda is on the ground you are just using pk fire so you shouldn't be getting punished for it really. Even though Zelda has a reflector it's worth using Fire just cause if you anticipate her using it you can punish with short hop dair.

I play this matchup very defensively by mainly spacing fairs and trying not to be predictable as to let her in my zone. It's best just to space her out and try and bait her to approach so you can have an easier time landing hits. If she goes in the air don't be afraid to challenge her every time as you should almost always come out on top. However if you are above zelda your main priority is to get back to the ground because of her deadly uair. On the ground zelda is superior but you shouldn't be on the ground very often anyway with all the SH fairs and the like but if you find yourself near her just jab or grab and get away, you don't want to get caught in dtilts or smashes. Roll away if you can do so without being punished. Also since zelda's offensive options are lacking they will tend to dash attack (since it is relatively fast, does decent damage, and has a nice hitbox) so always be aware of that move so you can punish with a shield grab. I honestly think this matchup is even, this may just be a matchup that I personally find difficult (I've never lost to zelda in tournament, but the matches tend to be a headache) but Zelda is decent versus Ness just because if you can't get her to approach it can be quite the challenging match. Also Uffe you can di out of her smashes a lot of the time.

50/50

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so what about stages? does Ness hate Yoshi's as much as Zelda does?

 

[ViceGrip]

Zelda hates Yoshi's? why? Yea Yoshi's isn't preferred usually due to slants messing up pk fire's distance and the walls of the stage/random platforms can give ness's recovery trouble.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

for similar reasons as Ness, recovery issues, maybe its the best stage to fight on since both sides dislike it.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

In my experience with this match up (in person it's Doppelganger and Awesome, online it's mainly Linkz and Maos) Zelda has great defensive options so you want to approach as little as possible. Zelda has poor offensive options so she will likely be approaching as little as possible as well. So it's a game of who can bait the other into approaching more. It's much safer to use projectiles on zelda than it is for her to use Din's fire because if she messes up with that then you get regained % but if you mess up you may get dash attacked or grabbed. Ideally if zelda is on the ground you are just using pk fire so you shouldn't be getting punished for it really. Even though Zelda has a reflector it's worth using Fire just cause if you anticipate her using it you can punish with short hop dair.

I play this matchup very defensively but mainly spacing fairs and trying not to be predictable as to let her in my zone. It's best just to space her out and try and bait her to approach so you can have an easier time landing hits. If she goes in the air don't be afraid to challenge her every time as you should almost always come out on top. However if you are above zelda your main priority is to get back to the ground because of her deadly uair. On the ground zelda is superior but you shouldn't be on the ground very often anyway with all the SH fairs and the like but if you find yourself near her just jab or grab and get away, you don't want to get caught in dtilts or smashes. Roll away if you can do so without being punished. Also since zelda's offensive options are lacking they will tend to dash attack (since it is relatively fast, does decent damage, and has a nice hitbox) so always be aware of that move so you can punish with a shield grab. I honestly think this matchup is even, this may just be a matchup that I personally find difficult (I've never lost to zelda in tournament, but the matches tend to be a headache) but Zelda is decent versus Ness just because if you can't get her to approach it can be quite the challenging match. Also Uffe you can di out of her smashes a lot of the time.

50/50

This sums it up greatly, I completely agree.
On a sidenote: I'd like to play you sometime, Vice. :3 It might even help us further with the discussion.

 

[ViceGrip]

Ah cool i'm glad you think that it's an accurate summary. Yea we can play sometime, it'll just have significant button delay due to the massive distance but I don't mind so much.

 

[Yink]

Wow Vice that's probably going to be a lot of the summary if you don't mind.

I usually give input but I don't play against Zeldas, so I'm sorry for no discussion

 

[ViceGrip]

Of course I don't mind! There's much more to the matchup I'm sure but that's the basics. Zelda is definitely not in the bottom 3 worst category but I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that.

 

[Uffe]

That is a pretty good summary. As far as Yoshi's Island goes, I'm not really sure. If it's recovery issues alone, then it's probably in Zelda's favor on that stage. Ness can use the ShyGuy's as PK Fire bait and create pillars, despite the fact the stage isn't one of Ness' best. Still, you've got to improvise.

 

[Eagleye893]

About Yoshi's island.... I ****ing hate it... a countless number of times, my thunder has been eaten offstage by stuff that shouldn't even be nearby.... Shy guy near the edge of the blast zone.... the GHOST coming up and eating it as i make an inverted PKT2 attempt.....

I have the crappiest luck ever on that stage....

for now, I don't see anything making this matchup anything different. 50/50 seems good for the time being until either side can come up with anything that shifts it at all towards one...

 

[_clinton]

I can testify that I truly hate Zelda's defensive game, but I noticed this has been talked about enough.

My Thunder has been eaten by a balloon more than once before though somehow, so part of me hates Smashvile greatly because of that and I always have to destroy those balloons when I see them.