Metagame Development Thread. New thing to read!

[Krystedez]

It shouldn't be a surprise that an inexperienced Wifi wario beat a guy who has been considered a Wario slayer and the best Falco for 2 years now? Are you ********?

Please don't call people ********. I'll let others say for me as well, but I've been getting into tournament after tournament with the midwest playing many diverse amounts of people and players. This was my second "national" if you count VG boot camp. I also took M2K down to 1 stock and decent percent on both games I played him in my SECOND round there. I'm sure I can at least put up a fight more than what you're giving me credit for, but at the same time I don't consider my win against DEHF a huge feat or anything because you are right that he did play less than his full potential... on the two stages I beat him.

I'd love to hear him express what happened. In fact I might even post around Falco boards or leave him a Visitor Message. I even apologized to him after the games about the suicide first game and he sorta just shook his head or something (?) and walked away. But that was after the handshake and gg's.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Padô]

that's some of the scrubbiest logic i've ever seen, if someone wins they win and if someone loses they lose, it's that simple. saying stuff like "it was a fluke" or "he lost because he wasn't trying" or "i only lost because i suicided and then he picked a gay stage" is just ridiculous, that's like some stuff you hear from people who go to their first tournaments.

I tried to be really REALLY polite up there, but then Masky expressed EXACTLY what I wanted to say no so politely.

 

[HugS™]

that's some of the scrubbiest logic i've ever seen, if someone wins they win and if someone loses they lose, it's that simple. saying stuff like "it was a fluke" or "he lost because he wasn't trying" or "i only lost because i suicided and then he picked a gay stage" is just ridiculous, that's like some stuff you hear from people who go to their first tournaments.

Or... that's something you hear from someone who has been within the competitive community for 6 years and has more experience than 99% of the people on these boards. You're trying to place a stereotype on a type of player, when you aren't even knowing enough to do such a thing.

Actually, I've never heard such statements from people going to their first tournaments. They're too new to form such an opinion. They view things as black and white, as you do, and assume nothing more goes into a win and a loss other than just a winning and a losing.


Anyways, DEHF aint gonna come in here because he is a professional, and you don't come in here to discuss your loss because you'll sound defensive/bitter.

SO, that's why I'm coming in here to do it instead.

Krystadedz, I think the main issue is that you are NOT considering your win over DEHF a huge feat. It's as if you think it's no big deal. That's the tone you give off. You're probably thinking you're screwed if you're proud, and screwed if you're humble. But there is a way to be tactful about it. It's a huge deal to beat him, so be happy, be proud, but at least pretend to consider that you may have gotten lucky. Considering the facts, it is a very real possibility, so to not acknowledge that you may have gotten lucky shows a great deal of disrespect to players who have worked harder and for longer than you have.

And others aren't making you look any better by implying that Fiction was bad for not being able to beat Larry lately himself. But that's not really your fault. It just affects the way people perceive you.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[HugS™]

Yeah, a true pro doesn't say a word about his wins or losses unless provoked. What you're describing and what I'm doing are two different things. I wasn't involved in this match, so I can analyze the matchup all I want. It's scrub-like of you to assume that wins and losses are so black and white. It's a foolish mentality, and I have no idea who made you believe that it's the "pro" way to think of things. Like, who told you what a "true pro" really is, haha. You can't say you've learned from experience.

Anyways, People involved in matches have to react in more black and white terms because if they don't, they'll seem defensive and bitter...I didn't play in the match, so I can analyze it with more freedom.

I'm not making Larry seem like anything, I've already established several times that I'm speaking for myself. I don't expect DEHF or Fiction to talk. They can keep quiet, I'll do the talking.

 

[Krystedez]

You can sound however you want if you choose your words carefully. If DEHF wanted to, I'm sure he could come in here and explain exactly what happened without a single doubt being himself and understanding the consequences. Being defensive/bitter is saying "YOU GOT LUCKY, I SD'D THATS THE ONLY REASON YOU WON, I HATE YOUR WARIO ITS SO RANDOM/STUPID..."etc...

I think it's responsible to acknowledge the fact that DEHF didn't play his best, that's enough. What I don't think is responsible is that anyone should be comparing skill and stressing respect and **** around a metagame thread. That's what I was trying to avoid.

If you have a problem with the fact that I didn't directly say that he might have got unlucky... and then tell me that I'm disrespecting players by not saying so because they worked "harder" and "longer"? I don't know what to say to you. I really don't. That's just pulling something out of nothing. Literally.

The REASON I don't care so much about beating Larry and the reason I don't care about said skill from us as players and such is because, like I said, I didn't make it very far in brackets, I got DQ'd by a supposedly reputable player from the WC, Sky', and then didn't get to play more than 3 rounds. I was ****ty about that, and it made me not enjoy the win that much, nor feel like it was warranted. I made one of our best MW warios have to play the dude in losers.

If I wasn't clear about that, I'm sorry. It has nothing to do with whether I respect DEHF or not. I was happy to beat him, I was proud of my individual efforts, but I wasn't very happy with it anymore after being put into losers with Big Lou and then losing right then and there for the whole tourney because of a big misunderstanding.

For the record, I been into this game since 64 came out. I may not have competed as long as you folks have, but please do not bring the elitist view of thinking that just because someone has been playing more means they automatically deserve some underlying respect that I didn't push to give. As far as I know, I did my best to give him that as a player when we faced off and I'm trying to here, by not thinking too much of the win.

I'm just here discussing what I think about the matchup in general, regardless why or how I beat DEHF, or even how I felt about it. I mentioned the others to explain for me also because of people continually pointing me out as a wifi wario and some random. Please. I can attest to my own skill through actual playing people, so that's why I can't exactly just defend myself in writing for a video game.

If you want to have the last word, take it. I'm done. I just don't want any more misunderstandings, I'm trying really hard to be nice, but it's not working, just making me more mad and I don't want to disrespect anyone.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It shouldn't be a surprise that an inexperienced Wifi wario beat a guy who has been considered a Wario slayer and the best Falco for 2 years now? Are you ********?

LoL don't get me started on ook vs Haze

If you think I'm trying to argue that these matches never happened, and that these less deserving players didn't really win, you're missing my point.

Well I have a problem with a couple of things that you've stated first if the wifi part. I really wish you guys would stop act as if ppl don't come from wifi and do extremely well offline. It happens more often than not. Two of the top 3 players in the World used to be avid wifi players. There's a multitude for wifi players that can play well offline as well. If you guys would stop looking down on online players maybe their wouldn't be much of a surprise. It really sounds to me as though you're saying the less deserving player won. If you weren't trying to say that then why bring up Larry's SD or the CP to brinstar?

Yeah, a true pro doesn't say a word about his wins or losses unless provoked. What you're describing and what I'm doing are two different things. I wasn't involved in this match, so I can analyze the matchup all I want. It's scrub-like of you to assume that wins and losses are so black and white. It's a foolish mentality, and I have no idea who made you believe that it's the "pro" way to think of things. Like, who told you what a "true pro" really is, haha. You can't say you've learned from experience.

Anyways, People involved in matches have to react in more black and white terms because if they don't, they'll seem defensive and bitter...I didn't play in the match, so I can analyze it with more freedom.

I'm not making Larry seem like anything, I've already established several times that I'm speaking for myself. I don't expect DEHF or Fiction to talk. They can keep quiet, I'll do the talking.

If you want to analyze the match the analyze the match. However , it's rather ****ty of you to complain about the stage that Krsyt took DEHF to. Also it's not just the match you're talking about you're also saying things about krsyt tone. Anyways all this true pro and pro stuff is non sense everyone talks trash and talks trash to each other. It's fun I'm actually more surprised that kyrst isn't running off at the mouth. But hey I'm trying to get to DEHF level where people john for me. That must be nice.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Ignore this

 

[Count]

Lol at "I don't want to get into mikehaze vs ook"

Marth got two stocked.

I don't even want to discuss kryz vs larry. You guys are handling that just fine.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol at "I don't want to get into mikehaze vs ook"

Marth got two stocked.

I don't even want to discuss kryz vs larry. You guys are handling that just fine.

DK is beat marth. I'd really wise Marth boards would stop overrating their MU's =/.

 

[PhantomX]

If Larry SDs that's his mistake. All it takes is one mistake at high levels to lose a set, whether it's a big mistake like an SD or a smaller one like accidentally dropping a shield before all the hits of a multihit are through, which then sets you up to get killed/gimped. Kryst is by no means bad, as he's done quite well at almost all the tournies he's attended. Unorthodox, yes. Also, Larry and his posse have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to john about him losing on Brinstar. When someone has as much experience vs Wario as he does, if they allow Brinstar to be picked, they DESERVE to lose that round.

If Larry was WOAHMG SO OUT OF KRYSTS league, even with SDs and bad stage choice he would've come out victorious, but that wasn't the case. Perhaps Kryst is only slightly inferior to him and some bad luck/choices gave the Wario the win. By no means is that unable to happen again. That said, I really hate WC and EC for always meatriding themselves so hard (and I hated it when certain South players did it as well).

 

[toobusytocare]

Fiction he be mad,
Everybody mad.

WC they be mad

 

[OverLade]

It shouldn't be a surprise that an inexperienced Wifi wario beat a guy who has been considered a Wario slayer and the best Falco for 2 years now? Are you ********?

LoL don't get me started on ook vs Haze

If you think I'm trying to argue that these matches never happened, and that these less deserving players didn't really win, you're missing my point.

I'm gonna be honest hugs this is just looking like hard west coast salt to me.

This is brawl, an inexperienced wifi player (who is really ****ing good) beating a top player like DEHF isn't entirely shocking, especially given the SD. I didn't read what Kryst said but he doesn't seem to be being cocky about it at all. To the majority of the community, this really shouldn't be a problem.

In the melee scene (where I know you've been well involved in forever) it might be a big deal but for brawl it's really not.

Remember when Chu lost to DEHF. He basically airdodged off the stage at zero and got stage spiked. Nobody johned for DEHF, they just praised chu for capitalizing. If Krystedez was as big and well known a name as Chu, this wouldn't be a problem. You're basically being prejudiced against a player because he's not well known.

edit:
EC and WC are both overhyped. Its true.

 

[Sovereign]

Anyways, DEHF aint gonna come in here because he is a professional, and you don't come in here to discuss your loss because you'll sound defensive/bitter.

SO, that's why I'm coming in here to do it instead.

I'm not making Larry seem like anything, I've already established several times that I'm speaking for myself. I don't expect DEHF or Fiction to talk. They can keep quiet, I'll do the talking.

Dude, get your **** together, seriously.

You were not there, so you really can't say anything about the match, and should not say anything for the sake of looking very silly, like you are now. Kryz beat DEHF, period.

I'd really appreciate it, if you'd leave my friend alone about his tone. He's a very respectful guy and shouldn't have to take crap from you, because you think he "sounds" nonchalant over a win... on a video game. Johning for DEHF about him not being at his best, due to being out of state is silly, because Kryz was out of state... what's next?

I think this is dumb, and you should leave this thread alone, so that it can get back to the metagame discussion.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm gonna be honest hugs this is just looking like hard west coast salt to me.

This is brawl, an inexperienced wifi player (who is really ****ing good) beating a top player like DEHF isn't entirely shocking, especially given the SD. I didn't read what Kryst said but he doesn't seem to be being cocky about it at all. To the majority of the community, this really shouldn't be a problem.

In the melee scene (where I know you've been well involved in forever) it might be a big deal but for brawl it's really not.

Remember when Chu lost to DEHF. He basically airdodged off the stage at zero and got stage spiked. Nobody johned for DEHF, they just praised chu for capitalizing. If Krystedez was as big and well known a name as Chu, this wouldn't be a problem. You're basically being prejudiced against a player because he's not well known.

edit:
EC and WC are both overhyped. Its true.

EC not hype WC hype.

 

[Krystedez]

Sorry if my posts get lengthy, I have a tendency to over explain things... Might have something to do with why I get misunderstood a lot, especially with all this talk about my tone about things...

 

[Sovereign]

Sorry if my posts get lengthy, I have a tendency to over explain things... Might have something to do with why I get misunderstood a lot, especially with all this talk about my tone about things...

No... you don't need to apologize for anything. Mofos need to leave you alone. You won, end of discussion. We don't need to delve into mystical factors and opinions as to why DEHF lost/ you won.

Now, back to the metagame development, please.

 

[toobusytocare]

how about that doppleganger glitch?

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[toobusytocare]

what ever happened to it?
was DMG just trollin or what?

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[HugS™]

Dude, get your **** together, seriously.

You were not there, so you really can't say anything about the match, and should not say anything for the sake of looking very silly, like you are now. Kryz beat DEHF, period.

I'd really appreciate it, if you'd leave my friend alone about his tone. He's a very respectful guy and shouldn't have to take crap from you, because you think he "sounds" nonchalant over a win... on a video game. Johning for DEHF about him not being at his best, due to being out of state is silly, because Kryz was out of state... what's next?

I think this is dumb, and you should leave this thread alone, so that it can get back to the metagame discussion.

I never tried to say he lost cuz he was OOS. Where'd you get that from?

I'm gonna be honest hugs this is just looking like hard west coast salt to me.

This is brawl, an inexperienced wifi player (who is really ****ing good) beating a top player like DEHF isn't entirely shocking, especially given the SD. I didn't read what Kryst said but he doesn't seem to be being cocky about it at all. To the majority of the community, this really shouldn't be a problem.

In the melee scene (where I know you've been well involved in forever) it might be a big deal but for brawl it's really not.

Remember when Chu lost to DEHF. He basically airdodged off the stage at zero and got stage spiked. Nobody johned for DEHF, they just praised chu for capitalizing. If Krystedez was as big and well known a name as Chu, this wouldn't be a problem. You're basically being prejudiced against a player because he's not well known.

edit:
EC and WC are both overhyped. Its true.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Chu can get all the praise he wants and he can act as he wants because he's earned his stripes. It's called smash etiquette. That's exactly what I'm saying.

LoL I've said all I want to say anyways. I'll let you all get back to the metagame discussion then.

 

[Krystedez]

I think Sov got that from Fiction's post.

As far as this smash etiquette goes, I'd like to think I earned the right of being a smash player and acting how I want because it's a free country, and I don't even try to act like I'm all that or anything. If you got that from me I apologize for that. I just had a pretty ****ty weekend is all.

 

[CR4SH]

that's some of the scrubbiest logic i've ever seen, if someone wins they win and if someone loses they lose, it's that simple. saying stuff like "it was a fluke" or "he lost because he wasn't trying" or "i only lost because i suicided and then he picked a gay stage" is just ridiculous, that's like some stuff you hear from people who go to their first tournaments.

this.

Suiciding is your own fault. That means you weren't as good as the other guy was that round.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I didn't mean to start some wacky forum-fight...

#1: Doppelganger is ****
#2: Sovereign who are you and why are you in here trying to moderate the wario boards?
#3: MK ***** wario we will never beat him
#4: Tire trixies don't work
#5: Falco beats wario if you want hit me up on Fiction52s on AIM if u want to talk >_>

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Stupid internet making me double post delete this juan

 

[Quik17]

When someone has as much experience vs Wario as he does, if they allow Brinstar to be picked, they DESERVE to lose that round.

I think RC might be a little worse in the Wario-Falco MU

Also, I agree with Krystedez on the whole BF/FD thing. I'd rather fight on FD than BF when it's the Falco player's CP.

Edit: I still think the Falco-Wario MU is 55-45 Falco...maybe 60-40

 

[toobusytocare]

MK is winnable as wario though, its just ******* hard if the MK is good lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I really don't get why people say falco wins this match up. I also don't get why people prefer BF to FD maybe the whole plat form thing. We have two stages we can CP him that make it extremely hard for him to beat us on. If you don't want to take him to either other those there's still Lylat. We also out camp him.

@Fiction IDK man the more I want krystedez the more I want to use tires. I don't see how increasing my options while limiting my opponents is bad. The only downside to tires is how limited they can be when trying to obtain them.

I don't see any reason to limit myself as a Wario. If I want to play a stiff non flexible character I'd go back to Marth.

 

[Sovereign]

I didn't mean to start some wacky forum-fight...

#1: Doppelganger is ****
#2: Sovereign who are you and why are you in here trying to moderate the wario boards?
#3: MK ***** wario we will never beat him
#4: Tire trixies don't work
#5: Falco beats wario if you want hit me up on Fiction52s on AIM if u want to talk >_>

I'm Kryz's friend, as stated before, and I was tired of this constant shooting down at his skill compared to DEHF's, because you assume DEHF has been playing a game that's been out for two years, longer than Kryz, and because DEHF's been competitive longer. And?

Hidden talent is everywhere.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

looooooooool sovereign

 

[Sovereign]

looooooooool sovereign

Laughing cleanses the soul...

Some people need that. Good to know I could help, man.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

If you actually wanted this to go back to the metagame discussion you wouldnt have responded to my post

 

[Sovereign]

Well let's go back, then.

IMO, it's Falco's favor. 45:55 Falco to possibly 40:60 Falco

Falco's got a good stack of options to keep Wario on his toes, and as always, his chaingrab is there for him. If the Wario is a bike-type, then Falco has his reflector to change things up in a heartbeat, if he's gettin' pounded by tires or the whole bike, most of which I doubt would happen.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

At least I agree with you on that LOL

 

[Krystedez]

After personally taking a beating from Arty's Falco, I know for a fact that, just like Pit versus GW with his bucket, you can mindgame them just by having the option of hitting them with the arrows(bike), forcing them to retreat and attempt to use their down+B.

All you need to do against a reflector-happy Falco is consistently mind-game them to use it, condition them to use it, bait it when you need to, punish them in their lag, rinse and repeat until they quit using it, in which case you attempt to use the bike and tires as traps.

If you have both the bike and tires bouncing on opposite sides of Falco, I think it gets quite confusing for the bird. They can't sit there and reflect everything with their laggy as hell down+B.

I will admit that I have yet to "pound" anyone notable with the bike yet, but every falco besides Arty now that I've faced I've used this mindgame to help me with the matchup in general. That's why I was hoping SOOOO BAD to face Arty, to see if my theory in practice would be right.

Course, if you're as good as Big Lou or Arty and are smart anyways, you can work around those things. then it just comes down to that oh-so-precious patience.

I will still strive to push the metagame in favor of a equal MU for Wario, but if push comes to shove and my results personally can't tell anything for the future, I will personally back down from this. I think 55-45 Falco's favor isn't unreasonable, I just think we can do so much more, especially if people are still afraid to use the bike.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Wait whos arty?

 

[Sovereign]

Top Falco from Illinois, I believe.