Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[matt4300]

@V-K: thats what Nair and Bair is for. Only aspect of his game this hurts is his ledge hoped fair is terrible ... better to use a nair.( it does more damage and kb than links old first hit fair anyway lol)

lol Yeh sword play the me and cape where disscussing how little damage link does 2 days ago and i sugested this buff. He agreed. This was what I was talking about by "good things are coming" on the 5 page. But I had no idea cape would get it doing more kb aswell... I just told him to make it combo both hits. Sadly i also sugested that links up-b do a more reasonable percents ... but he didnt buy it lol. Ohwell i tried :/

On how it affects his game though.. It helps him a GREAT deal... the first hit actually adds percnet for the second. So say if you knocked the enemy off stage, and he was at 80 (a percnet the second hit wont kill at) the first hit would make it 89 then the second hit would be able to kill.. its very cool.
Sadly its a hard move to combo into .. I mostly use it like so...

To hit opponents on platforms (can lead to WoP esque shinanigans)

SHing it will allow the second hit to be used as a very safe kill move due to sheild lag,and the almost no existent aerial lag
RAR fair the second hit will hit the back of the shield or knock then in a more favorable direction.

Off stage as an amazing ko move with little lag so link can use it no worrys

On a side note i found that anything Fair cant do Bair can. Trying to combo into an fair is hard but bair works just fine. So bair is still usefull as is nair. I havent really tested if Shff fair first hit has enough stun for a grab,spin attack,dsmash JC ect hopefully it does...

Right now I use this move MUCH more at least 3 times asmuch as i used to .. this is now a real move and not just for looks.

EDIT: OH havent tryed dtilt to fair... the guys i play against dont ever let me hit them with Dtilt >_> to **** slow and short ranged.

 

[Swordplay]

It was a good buff.

Really if there should be any focus on Link it should be around his finishing game. Got to look at either setups or finishers and this defiantly took the issue by the horns.

(I tried to accomplish both when I suggested the d-tilt but it may not ever be worked into the metagame due to speed and range which makes me question myself because I question how necessary it was which is why I have kind of shut up since then)

We'll just have to try it out and see where it goes from there.

You got to tell me how it goes. MY WII IS DOWN AGAIN

 

[matt4300]

It was a good buff.

Really if there should be any focus on Link it should be around his finishing game. Got to look at either setups or finishers and this defiantly took the issue by the horns.

(I tried to accomplish both when I suggested the d-tilt but it may not ever be worked into the metagame due to speed and range which makes me question myself because I question how necessary it was which is why I have kind of shut up since then)

We'll just have to try it out and see where it goes from there.

You got to tell me how it goes. MY WII IS DOWN AGAIN

I thought it would be. ^_^

Its sad to say but link doesnt kill reliably until the 130-150s against good DI and his best kill move the sweet spot dair is also his hardest to land, and thats saying something. Besides fsmash (wich doesnt kill until 115 or so no DI) all of his kill moves are ridiculously easy to avoid and DI. For a char thats soposed to be all about his onstage and power he sure does seem weak in those areas.
When shanus first buffed his up-b it was perfect killed at 100% no DI... but still was a lagfest. Now that it doesnt kill till 120 or so its just as unreliable as his others, But all that is beside the point...

If we want link to kill reliably theres only one move that is very consitent and easy to combo into at most percents... UAIR if uair killed at the percents it does for toon link or lower since link is soposed to be better at kiilling than tool link (lawl) this would destroy his problems getting kills... if you havent been able to get a low kill with sweet spot dair or fsmash by the time there at 120 uair there ***** or grab uair, dilt uair, SHff uair ect ect...

 

[Swordplay]

maybe. (thats why I wanted a 2nd jump boost earlier so I can get Uairs off better)

But I'd rather try to find ways to go into dair.



Anyway, lets not talk about buffs/nerfs......lets just test this new change out.
Connecting both hits of fair, I bet the damage is crazy

 

[Shadic]

While I think that the new Fair is certainly better than the old one, I think that it should have been changed differently. There's some circumstances (Shorthopped Fair) where it'll cancel after the first hit, letting somebody smack you pretty easily. I'd have liked both Fair hits doing the same knockback as the second hit, or at least close. This would make it more similar to the Smash64 Fair.

And if you want more damage, you could just increase that a little bit. Would also marginally increase the priority.

 

[matt4300]

maybe. (thats why I wanted a 2nd jump boost earlier so I can get Uairs off better)

But I'd rather try to find ways to go into dair.



Anyway, lets not talk about buffs/nerfs......lets just test this new change out.
Connecting both hits of fair, I bet the damage is crazy

It does 21% the first hit does 9 the second 12. (Foxes fair does 25% >_>) its very situational to actually hit with both hits ... especialy if the char your fighting is like pika or kirby. So really you mostly only ever do 12 % (wich is still less than tool links 13 >_>) but it is great for edge guarding. In sumation its a kill move not a damage move, but atleast its a move now lol.

@shadic: don't FF the SH fair and the first hit wont cancel its better to just SH fair and DI back or forward letting the first hit be an anti air hit for if they jump and the second a kill/gtfo move, but if you think your gonna get punished DI back and FF the first hit. Also if i cant get the horrendus damage of up-B buffed i dont think im getting anyone to buff links damages.


On another note Im gonna make a link kill move chart since a few of his moves have been buffed since vbrawl.

 

[Shadic]

Well, it's not really that much of a damage buff. I'll try and put out a code and we'll see.

And I'll throw the kill move chart up once you type it out, I look forward to it. :D

 

[Phantom1987]

maybe we could add a little more speed to his tilts or to his missiles execution.. the last would make easier to link to protect the edge while trying too make it back + it would make him awesome in the stage. less time for bombs to explote would give him better posibilities to recover also but would make them harder too use on stage..

PD: give link hover boots so that he can recovr!!! lol xDD + or the ocarina to teleport to the stage!! (tu tuu tuuuu tu tuuu tuu.. *BOOM* GAME!! )

 

[matt4300]

Link Kill moves Chart!

All kill percents where mid final destination no DI
Lights were taken from jiggz
Mids were taken from Mario
Heavys horizantal taken from Bowser
Heavys vertical taken from Cap. Falcon

Uair kill%s where taken from jumping chars at all the same height.

key:
B= back
F= in front
M= mid
SW=sweet spot
SO=sour spot
*= easiest to hit with/most usefull

______________Light__Mid__Heavy
Fsmash_Sw .....95.........113.....126 *
Fsmash_So/B....102.......122.....130

Fsmash2_Sw....81.........100.....110
Fsmash2_So....105.......126......140 *
Fsmash2_B.......86........105......112

Ftilt...............116......138.......152

Dsmash_F........108......138 ......161*
Dsmash_B........94........125.......145
Dsmash_Mid.......86.......111........130

Usmash............101.....139.........184

Utilt...................110.....140.........163

Fair-Sw/B..........99......118.......131

Dair_Sw..............67.....88.........107
Dair_So..............81.....107.......128*

Uair_Sw............106....130.......155

SpinAttack.......101....119.......131

Dtilt spike- depends on chars recovery



Feel free to delete this part:
Funny that fairs second hit kills at almost the exact same percents and does the exact damage as spin attack yet its much easier to land and much safer.... Also funny that falcon survies like 20 percnet more than most chars lol.

 

[Finns7]

Even though jab locks are gone we should still use them for free hits/kills.

 

[matt4300]

What? How can we use the jab locks if there gone, or did you mean jabs in general..? Because links jab is one of the only reasons that hes playable.

 

[Finns7]

If someone misses the tech, if you hit them with jab it forces them to get up.

 

[Swordplay]

Thats ture.


You can't Rang>Jab>Jab>Jab>Jab>Fsmash

But you can still Rang>Jab>fsmash









alright lets continue back to matchups.....Who is still pretty popular to play that we could discuss.

 

[Shadic]

I've always had trouble with Peach. Could just be because I suck against Peach. Also, you can't grab her while she's floating. Grr. But she's not that popular.

Maybe a Space Animal?

 

[Shadic]

Matt, I put up your chart thing, and cleaned it up a bit.

 

[matt4300]

Matt, I put up your chart thing, and cleaned it up a bit.

Thanks... it was a mess... and I wouldnet know how to fix it lol. I dont do many things like that on forums.

Can we not disscus mario... we would get to him eventually anyway. And I have already typed up my opinions.

Mario:

Advantages:
RANGE! mario pretty much has to be in the air to attack link. Links sword severly out spaces just about everything mario has. Bair can be hard to deal with though

Kill power- link has more powerful kill moves than mario and mario isnet very heavy. JC up-B/dsmash gets the job done.

Nair- nair out prioritizes a good bit of marios air game (sans bair) its a good idead to spam the hell out of this move against mario.

Disadvantages:
Cape- ****S LINK. weather it be projectiles,recovery,or general moves. Cape is really good against link.

FLUDD- again ****S LINK. very easy to kill link with this move. You better have a back up plan for recovery >_> (zair, holding a bomb)

Combos- Mario can combo the living **** out of link. Links fast fall speed and slightly large size makes it very easy to get him to high percents, But he has to get through you sword swings first.

Bair- walled bair is hard for link to deal with... and can carry link off stage. Your best bet is to sheild and try to punish with jabs, ftilt, utilt or retreating zair (dont spam ftilt)

Fire ballz- wow im sorry link mario just about has you out projectiled. These ****ers do more than links arrows and just as much as links rang + he can use them for approaches to start combos wich renders links sword usless, stoping your moves, gimping you. beware of the fire ballz

Comboing kill moves- Dtilt>fsmash if it doenst send you off screen it puts you out to far to recovery or sets up for easy FLUDD, Cape, Fire ball gimps. Dont forget mario has a weak meteor that can be comboed, and even if you meteor cancel your recovery isnet enough to save you.

Hard to grab: mario is almost always in the air... dont ever grab.

Summary:
Try and out space him you have a bigger sword than his XD USE IT. Dont ever go off stage even to attack mario... mario offstage- his up-b will stop your attacks (even dair) and he may even cape you off stage.(use galegaurding) link offstage- your dead (hookshot) Be defensive its your best bet to punish him, but dont spam projectiles. With a reflector and a better projectile than most of yours your will lose this battle (use bombs) .
One skrew up and your either offstage to get gimped or your comboed to 50 percent. Retreating zair is a good wa;y to keep him off you, but doenst work very well against mario because he can easily jump over it.
JAB CANCEL!!! and uhh DONT EVER GRAB!!! @o@ mario will be in the air and will punish you. OH and dtilt spike is near usless against him
Matchup- 65-35 in marios favor

sorry but links so easy to gimp and mario is one of the best gimpers in the game... its over link...

 

[matt4300]

HAZZAH! I have gotten to the bottom of why it feels like its so hard to kill with link below 130...

I have compiled a list of the lowest killing, easiest to combo into and most usefull kill moves for chars most similar to link.... here me out.

(all kill percents taken from mario mid final destination no DI... wich means no off the stage no in the air.. so this is even more extreme against link because he doenst kill that much in the air or off stage.)

DATA:

Link: longer range

Fsmash first hit sweet spot- 113
Dsmash Forward hit - 138
Uair- 130
Spin Attack- 119
Dair sour spot- 107

Toon link: stronger/much Faster/easy to combo into/ much less punishable

Fsmash both hits- 102
Fsmash last hit- 114
Usmash- 118
Uair- 116
Fair- 128
Dair- comboable spike

Samus: more powerfull/extremely easy to combo into/less punishable/faster

Fsmash Forward - 112
Bair sweet spot- 118
Power shot- 86
Dair-comboable spike

remeber these are the most usefull/ easiest landed kill moves not all there kill moves. Im not going to go into what samus and toonlink have over link either ... we should all know those things by now.

sorry for the double post.

 

[Shadic]

Dang Matt, you're really helping here. That really shows how Link has to get people high in damage before he can reliably get a kill.

Not to mention, it's basically impossible to combo into a kill move near those percentages.

 

[Swordplay]

Maybe but Link is a decent gimper now with d-tiltso he can take advantage of some matchups

============================================================

I want to post this. DO NOT FORGET PIVOT BOOSTING AND CRAQ WALK.

I know we have dash dancing and so this is a little outdated by if you ever feel like you have to grab, if you use a pivot boost you'll get the much less standing grab lag than the dash grab lag.

Then again, I suppose you can always crouch cancel your dash into a grab. ( Not that you would ever want to use grabs cause they arn't that good )

================================================================

Anyway My Mario opinions

40:60 Mario

Fireballs are not as big of a problem as matt says. If you stay mobile and use your range you can avoid and outprioritize them.

Mario wins in the combo departnment by a large margin. Link will want to play a defensive game and abuse range until the opponent makes a spacing mistake. Don't take the risk to go on the offensive often, If mario gets inside prepare to be owned.

Mario gimps Link pretty bad but Link can still gimp mario somewhat. It's not impossible. But just try to control the center of the stage. (AKA) don't go offstage ever unless mario is in a gimpable position.

Cape really ****s Link up

You have more power but its hard to find a good position to use it against mario.



The entire matchup I find myself using jabs and zairs.

 

[Shadic]

I've always thought of Mario as too short to zair reliably. Then again, I'm not good at using it to approach in the first place..

 

[piZ]

WTB some advice dealing with very agressive shieks! Shiek+ is such a pain.

 

[Swordplay]

WTB some advice dealing with very agressive shieks! Shiek+ is such a pain.

We'll do sheik next but we have already started mario.

I think we should let the mario+ boards know we are discussing them.

I'll go do that right now.

 

[GHNeko]

Fludd. GGs.

imo, 65:35 Mario.

THEN you have

80:20 Fluudd
90:10 Cape.

Link is like the new Mother boy against mario. The only issue Mario truely has against fighting Link is getting it, but unlike Toon Link and Marth, he has less options to keep Mario out and is generally slower.

From Zero to Mid-Mid percents, Link is nothing but combo bait to Mario, so I imagine link has to play vBrawl style and play really defensively. None of that offensive/adaptive **** because the last think Link wants is a Mario in his face. With poor DI, Mario can CG link 2-3 times from zero

Failing to sweetspot means a cape to the face, getting skeeted on with FLUDD, or a fireball to your head. Yes. Fireballs. They will **** link's recovery, as he's falling and as his rising. If you get hit with a fireball while falling towards the stage, I seriously believe your chances at recovering have just fallen considerably, especially if it kills your double jump. If that happens, just give up.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, I really think that the fireballs are going to have almost as much importance in hindering Link's recovery as they did in Smash64.

And that's bad news for Link.

 

[GHNeko]

Get your **** wrecked, heroes of time.

Fireballs can even wreck your tether recoveries when aimed properly. And if that happens, you have to up B, but by that point, we have every positional advantage you can think of. If you try to drop down to sweetspot, we speed hug OR stage spike (via Bair or Up B). If you try to immediately up B, we wont cape. We'll just fludd.

Like really, if you dont cement yourself to the center of the stage, you will be at a really bad positional advantage.

 

[Plum]

Something important to mention:

Most recent changes to Link now goes to his Boomerang.

Each hitbox does more damage with less knock back growth.

-Link Boomerang hitbox 1 (10 damage from 7, 30 growth from 40)
-Link Boomerang hitbox 2 (8 damage from 5, 30 growth from 40)

More damage, and less KB at higher percents. So in theory it should be more useful for followups. My only problem is that Link takes a while to throw the Boomerang; it limits the move to using when from a fair distance away because of the lag, so that should limit the followups you actually can get from it anyways.

I'm still hoping for the changes to happen to the Bomb to give it more reliable setups from it, but for now it is something.

I don't have my Wii with me, so for now this is just speculation.

 

[GHNeko]

Not a saving grace against mario's cape/fludd/fireballs

 

[Sterowent]

hah, gtfo with your smack talk, neko.

link will ocarina of time mario's ***.

 

[GHNeko]

So what? He can get his *** kicked by baby mario?

Get caped, son. Mario can shut down any and all of Link's projectiles, and mario's projectiles have less lag. SH Approach fire ball? You get hit, and a follow up WILL come.

Also, I'm TX's Resident B+ Smack Talker. I wanna grow up to be just like Xyro.

 

[Shadic]

More damage, and less KB at higher percents. So in theory it should be more useful for followups. My only problem is that Link takes a while to throw the Boomerang; it limits the move to using when from a fair distance away because of the lag, so that should limit the followups you actually can get from it anyways.

The problem is also that we can't use it to keep them on their guards on the boomerang recovery. It used to be that you'd have to watch it both ways, but most of the time now, it'll hardly even budge you on the way back.

You'd have to be mindgaming circles around your opponent to get any decent setups with it.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

So what? He can get his *** kicked by baby mario?

Get caped, son. Mario can shut down any and all of Link's projectiles, and mario's projectiles have less lag. SH Approach fire ball? You get hit, and a follow up WILL come.

Also, I'm TX's Resident B+ Smack Talker. I wanna grow up to be just like Xyro.

That means Mario > Link, at least...so far.

 

[Kief]

what the heck do ALC and ALR stand for?

and it looks like link's recovery still blows -_-

 

[Phantom1987]

I would like to see link throwing arrows like falco's lazors in melee !! O_o!! *¬*-- *back to reality*.. emm i would still like the idea of making link projetiles faster.. would give link better aproaches .. maybe a 100% lag cancelled quick draw?? there a better attacks that can cancel their lag 100%... and link arrow game could be better .. after all.. link is all arrows and sword in zelda's series..

 

[matt4300]

I would like to see link throwing arrows like falco's lazors in melee !! O_o!! *¬*-- *back to reality*.. emm i would still like the idea of making link projetiles faster.. would give link better aproaches .. maybe a 100% lag cancelled quick draw?? there a better attacks that can cancel their lag 100%... and link arrow game could be better .. after all.. link is all arrows and sword in zelda's series..

You might just get what you wish for We link mains are working on arrows at the moment, and again not exactly agreeing

oh and don't talk about buffs here... its "forbidden" SHhhhh

 

[Shadic]

what the heck do ALC and ALR stand for?

ALC - A mistake. Meant ALR.

ALR - Aerial lag reduction. It's how it works in Brawl+. You just cut the landing lag by a certain percentage, with Link having among the highest.

and it looks like link's recovery still blows -_-

Yeah, that seems to be a staple of the series.

 

[Plum]

ALC - A mistake. Meant ALR.

ALR - Aerial lag reduction. It's how it works in Brawl+. You just cut the landing lag by a certain percentage, with Link having among the highest.


Yeah, that seems to be a staple of the series.

Let's just be thankful that he doesn't have his N64 recovery. I swear it made Link lose distance >_>

 

[Shadic]

If you turn on high gravity and make him Metal, he does sink.

 

[Kief]

well the only reason i was going to get brawl+ was because i thought link had a recovery. since he doesn't, i dont think i'll get it...

 

[Shadic]

It's buffed over VBrawl for sure, but it's still one of the worst. Don't expect a Toon Link level of recovery.

 

[Shell]

@KIEF

Link+ has way more than just a mildy buffed recovery going for him in Brawl+. He already won a tournament, and depending on future changes will only get better. Don't let yourself miss out just because he still has a weakness (as all characters should).