• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

How not to lose(a terse and incomplete guide to your character)

ssbbFICTION

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
2,535
Note: While playing at my "prime" (summer of last year I guess?) I was actually far worse at smash than I am now. So don't point out things I did in old videos as contradicting this, as I know longer do them (I'm just out of practice).

As much as I hate to admit it, Brawl is not a game of winning. It hasn't been for awhile. Brawl has become a game of not losing. The goal is to avoid dying three times before your opponent does. This mindset leads to lots of timeouts and long matches, but it is the best way to play the game IMO.

Wario benefits a lot from this mindset because it gives him time to charge his fart. I should stress that unless your opponent literally gives you a PERFECT opportunity you should never try to kill with anything other than fart. Your goal should be to stay alive and get little damage here and there. Then when your realize fart would kill, you double check your charge time and

BOOM

One thing to remember that is important is that you should never "look" for a fart. I always crack up when im watching videos and the clock goes to a minute and 20 seconds or so and the wario COMPLETELY changes his style and starts hopping around menacingly trying to look tricky. I don't know why anyone would ever think that would work. The opponent simply plays safe and tries to bait the fart (which gets it wasted almost every time). Play EXACTLY the same and then just instead of that fair poke, change your mind at the last second and fart.

Remember everyone, there are 8 minutes on the clock. Even if you waited for the biggest possible fart, you still have 4 per round! And a max (not including farting every minute on the minute) of 6. So you have 4-6 farts per round. If you aren't using at LEAST 4 farts per match you are doing something wrong (this is assuming you lost the round. If you can win in 2-3 farts then be my guest). Don't get impatient. While they are camping you just remember your fart is charging so don't worry about it.

Also when you are trying to get a fart kill don't wait until its charged and then start approaching like crazy. I can't stress it enough that you need to keep your playstyle constant regardless of whether you are going for a fart or not. And if you decide to be risky and run in for a fart kill (like an idiot), at least wait until it is only 40 seconds charged or so, as this will give you enough time to find an opportunity.

OKAY

Now I will give you the reason that wario is not winning nationals. This is the hardest thing to understand with the character and work around in-game I think. I will direct your attention to a simple fact.

WARIOS JUMP OUT OF SHIELD IS REALLY REALLY FREAKING SLOW

His roll also sucks. And in case you hadn't noticed, its not too great for him to get grabbed out of shield either. This is how almost all damage to warios is done these days. people wait and then hit warios shield and wait for either the spotdodge or the jump. Anything they do will hit you out of your jump and I see it ALL THE TIME. DON'T DO IT. You are better off just rolling away and taking a dash attack or something. I wouldn't even bother spotdodging much. The point is that the ENTIRE GAME if you want to win you need to avoid letting your SHIELD be hit. It doesn't matter what spacing trixies you use to do it, but you need to avoid that scenario at all cost as its one of the only ways for wario to get hit by anything worth-while.

Thank you for reading and have a nice day.
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
3,229
Location
Cheeseland, Europe
Shielding for the sake of shielding is something that shouldn't be practiced in the first place, no matter what character. Whenever you shield, you should have something in mind, something that isn't 'lets hope he does something shieldgrabbable now'.

Shielding in and by itself should only be used when you are sure you can force something that results in a shieldgrab or w/e (read: nair) OoS. Shielding because of any other reason (which is usually fear or uncertainty) usually leads to worse situations, namely the one sketched by Fiction. Shielding simply takes away your one and most effective defensive asset: super pew pew mobility.

Notice how you aren't mobile while you're shielding (this is also what makes Bite not-so-broken-necessarily).
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
I just have a couple of question that would be nice if you answered.

With wario's OOS options why don't you mention his shield grab?

How many frames is Wario's jump OoS? Bowsers is 9 frames I believe. Do you know wario's?

How effective would jumping away OoS be?

Can you go to into detail of how brawl is not a game of winning?

I've always viewed brawl as a game of options and being able to judge your options when compared to your opponents options and deciding which option is the best for a given situation. Why do you see it as a game of not winning ? I understand the notion of brawl being a defensive game and all of this.
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
3,229
Location
Cheeseland, Europe
Wario's jump is 7 frames. It's not necessarily the worst jump in the game, but obviously we'd be much, much better off with a 5 frame jumpsquat (like Diddy's).
 

Shift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
359
Location
MD/VA
My problem with not winning is that I don't play gay enough. I know I should be running away the entire game like Masky does and basically not do an entire thing, forcing the opponent to come after me. Because that's where we Wario players basically shine. Like Fiction said, Wario's shouldn't be shielding and I tend to shield and spot dodge a lot.

It's a very bad habit I have to break. I should just roll away if I'm getting pressured. My main issue against a lot of MUs is "What To Do" when I'm against someone. I don't know if I should dair poke, fair poke, or just run away and force the enemy to come after me. And when they do, what do I do? Same strategy and then land the waft when ready?

There are a lot of questions I have when I play someone. Like Fiction said, you play to avoid dying 3 times. Just hard against MK, Diddy, Snake, DK, Falco, Marth, D3, ICs (for me).

When I play against MK, I have not a single clue on how to play against him if the MK is really good. Their pressure game is too strong and I choke under that pressure.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
My problem with not winning is that I don't play gay enough. I know I should be running away the entire game like Masky does and basically not do an entire thing, forcing the opponent to come after me. Because that's where we Wario players basically shine. Like Fiction said, Wario's shouldn't be shielding and I tend to shield and spot dodge a lot.

It's a very bad habit I have to break. I should just roll away if I'm getting pressured. My main issue against a lot of MUs is "What To Do" when I'm against someone. I don't know if I should dair poke, fair poke, or just run away and force the enemy to come after me. And when they do, what do I do? Same strategy and then land the waft when ready?

There are a lot of questions I have when I play someone. Like Fiction said, you play to avoid dying 3 times. Just hard against MK, Diddy, Snake, DK, Falco, Marth, D3, ICs (for me).

When I play against MK, I have not a single clue on how to play against him if the MK is really good. Their pressure game is too strong and I choke under that pressure.
What exactly is the MK doing that you're having trouble with?
 

Shift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
359
Location
MD/VA
What exactly is the MK doing that you're having trouble with?
Well when it comes to fighting MKs in my region I'm fighting MKs like Omni, Korn, Candy (he has a good MK). These are just to name a few. They're very quick and they really know how to apply pressure on you. Like quick dtilts to dthrow, very good spacing with their dairs, they'll nair me when I'm trying to recover on stage, etc, etc, etc.

There's a lot of gimmicks they have when I play against them. It's overwhelming. :urg:
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
Well when it comes to fighting MKs in my region I'm fighting MKs like Omni, Korn, Candy (he has a good MK). These are just to name a few. They're very quick and they really know how to apply pressure on you. Like quick dtilts to dthrow, very good spacing with their dairs, they'll nair me when I'm trying to recover on stage, etc, etc, etc.

There's a lot of gimmicks they have when I play against them. It's overwhelming. :urg:
I'd say I'd feel sorry for you but I'm from NJ.

If you know how they're going to apply pressure why can't you do anything about it? I'll advise you to become more familiar with the MU. However, you never want to be above a MK.

Edit: I know it may seem my advise is dickish and just oh don't jump into the ****. However, you need to take a conscious effort in your approach to not just this MU but this game especially with this character. Wario isn't going to be able to through out X move or Y attack. You need figure out why you're struggling. Then figure out how you can improve in the match. You can also look at other vids of Wario's to see what they're doing differently. It's going to take work and effort. Also don't get star struck by the name of your opponents. When you're from a region when your opponents are people who's video's you watched and seen on live stream it can be a bit overwhelming. Just take things in stride. Like I said earlier in my post I'm from NJ if you've ever bothered to look at one of the tourney results you'll see the people who attends and they used to be a time when m2k lived in Jersey. So take everything in stride and one step it up a time and hopefully you're start being able to improve and start being able to adapt to the things your opponent is doing.
 

Shift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
359
Location
MD/VA
I'd say I'd feel sorry for you but I'm from NJ.

If you know how they're going to apply pressure why can't you do anything about it? I'll advise you to become more familiar with the MU. However, you never want to be above a MK.

Edit: I know it may seem my advise is dickish and just oh don't jump into the ****. However, you need to take a conscious effort in your approach to not just this MU but this game especially with this character. Wario isn't going to be able to through out X move or Y attack. You need figure out why you're struggling. Then figure out how you can improve in the match. You can also look at other vids of Wario's to see what they're doing differently. It's going to take work and effort.
I do watch vids, practice with the MK players, I study the MU, etc. Just as a Wario, it's a uphill battle against MK just like it is when fighting a D3. :glare:
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
I do watch vids, practice with the MK players, I study the MU, etc. Just as a Wario, it's a uphill battle against MK just like it is when fighting a D3. :glare:
I think it's a little bit different with D3. With d3 you're more concerned about not getting grab and bair. With MK his moves are extremely fast and very hard to punish. It's harder to rack up the damage on the Mk then it is a d3. I also think you have more options against a d3 then you do against a MK. Bite is a lot more effective. Then there's throwing bike at d3 while he's recovering. etc etc.

it is an up hill battle because the MU is in MK's favor. However, I think as you get more familiar with the MU it starts to become less and less of an up hill battle until of course you start playing some of the better MK's. basically just grind with wario and you'll start to get there.
 

Krystedez

Awaken the Path
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
4,301
Location
Colorado Springs
Interesting take, Fiction.

I noticed that, from what you've told me, I've gone back and remembered some of the times I have been damaged, it's usually OoS jumps and clunky one-sided close-quarter combat situations that Wario shouldn't be in really.

Thanks for the post! You were very straight forward. Hopefully this sets into people's minds, because it is true, his jump is pretty crappy (from startup) >_<
 

Laem

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
2,292
Location
Nightrain
having a jumpsquat 2 frames slower than an excellent jumpsquat sure sounds like the end of the world.
 

Zigsta

Disney Film Director
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
8,316
Location
Burbank, CA
NNID
Zigsta
3DS FC
1547-5526-6811
Cool read, buddy. <3

Shielding for the sake of shielding is something that shouldn't be practiced in the first place, no matter what character.
Bowser shields to Fortress OoS. He's one of the few characters--and likely the only character--I can think of off the top of my head that does this.

But if he shields too much against Wario, you can just Bite him. :(
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
AL:

Why whine and ***** about NY/NJ when you don't even attend tournaments.
I haven't been to a tourney in a while. I've been to 5 tournies in NJ. I think I can talk about my region even though I don't frequent the tournies. For someone who's been to Apex I think you'd understand what I'm talking about. The **** is ****ing ridiculous. It's actually pretty obnoxious. Check the results from VC8 and the players that are there then get at me. Just because I'm currently unable to attend doesn't mean i don't want to attend or I've never attend. if you want to sponsor me and send me to tourneys I'll send you my paypal info. Otherwise you can shut the **** up about my tourney attendance.
 

ssbbFICTION

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
2,535
I think people need to stop counting frames so much. the point is that people can aerial warios shield and then hit you before you jump away. Falco's lasers can even trap you on the ground if they are timed right. Its a horrible predicament and if anyone disagrees with me on this they can go play wario the same way as he has always been played and keep getting hit as they try to jump away.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Eh

Playing not to lose = yes

The shield part I disagree with somewhat. Wario has a great shield and the way it functions is ********. He would have top 3 OOS game if he had better ground oos options. His shield grab is great, his other options for grounded not so good.

The real reason Wario has trouble? Fast falling at the wrong times. Fast falling is actually the saving grace of Wario. It opens so many doors for him when done correctly.
 

Padô

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
1,562
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
DMG, I think the shield is not the problem by itself , It's probably the way (and probably the timing)people are getting over shieldpressure and other stuff that happens when Wario opens his shield.

Good read. Seems like Fiction is starting to open his chest of secrets WAHAHAHAH.
 

Dark 3nergy

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,389
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Gambit.7
3DS FC
4313-0369-9934
Switch FC
SW-5498-4166-5599
Wario's jump is 7 frames. It's not necessarily the worst jump in the game, but obviously we'd be much, much better off with a 5 frame jumpsquat (like Diddy's).
wow...welp...id rather be in the air then
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Wario's shield and options are fine, you just have to guess right or take the safe path out.
 

Padô

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
1,562
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Wario's shield and options are fine, you just have to guess right or take the safe path out.
Your statement is perfect.

The point is, people are underestimating Wario's OoS options, specially by jumping out of bad positions, that's the point fiction is trying to focus on I guess. They are not that kind of safe you know, like MK's UpB under a high platform which cancels at 1 frame. It's definetely not worth it using without thinking on what's happening next.

Also, I've seen Krystedez getting FSmash by a Luigi a several times by jumping out of the shield. :(

I guess you ran out of luck Kryz.
 

Krystedez

Awaken the Path
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
4,301
Location
Colorado Springs
Also, I've seen Krystedez getting FSmash by a Luigi a several times by jumping out of the shield. :(

I guess you ran out of luck Kryz.
Guess so D:

But realize that the Fsmash I got hit by Big Lou in game three last stock at 80 was rediculously outta place, and I just went toward my death on accident (meant to short hop up back and uair, not back air...)

With Be@st I get fsmashed hard sometimes, lol, I know how it feels.

I'll start getting lucky again! Watch me !
 

Shift

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
359
Location
MD/VA
I've been trying to adapt to what Fiction has been saying. I've been playing VERY campy, try to be as safe as I can, and try to shield grab whenever I can. I'm trying to lower my spot dodge bad habits and shielding on the ground.

As far as I know when I'm shielding on the ground, I'm definately going for a shield grab. When I'm playing campy and I managed to take my enemy off the stage, I pull the bike out (I suck at immediately getting off of it, that's the hard part) and I focus on destroying my bike to get some wheels. It doesn't matter on what the MU is. I use the bike as a defensive barrier for myself and use the tires as my offensive game (currently).

It's not going to well since my tire game mix-up is pretty garbz but I'm trying to get used to it. I only sorta go on the offensive side when I'm trying to get a read in to waft. If not, I go back onto the defensive. It's a hard thing to do as a Wario especially since I'm more of an offensive type. But I want to win. And to win is to turtle.
 

GOL | 482 | JSalt

The Folse Deity
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
923
Location
Metairie, LA
NNID
JSalty
So I read this yesterday and took it to heart. Lee told me I completely changed the way I play when we played seriouslies last night. I was actually going even with his MK/Diddy.

The point that hit me right in the face was changing one's playstyle for a waft. Most players know that fishing for kills is a bad thing, so why am I obviously fishing for wafts?
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
IMO you don't have to play "gay" to win a match. In fact, I believe that specific mentality is hurting Brawl's potential metagame. There are a lot more options than jumping around and dodging, you just have to be good enough to find them.

I see Brawl as kind of a rock-paper-scissors game. Every option has a potential counter, reset and weakness. It's easy to just reset the situation and look for a mistake or opening, but the real challenge is finding weaknesses and counters to every option.

Zen Master.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Nope. Playing gay is the way of the future because playing gay USUALLY is the strongest strategy you can abuse.

Take Lucario for example. Why keep fighting him and let him grow stronger/make it possible for a comeback when you can simply run from him when he is weak?

Wario is a better defensive character than offensive character.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Yes he did. His options when he has a tire are still not that good. The problem is his very slow tosses. He takes too long to actually throw the tire in most cases. However, something you CAN abuse that is hard is if MK is spacing Fair on your shield kinda poorly, you can glide toss backwards and punish him where as your other options probably would fail.

But yes. Tire in hand isn't that great when shielding, especially if you want to shield grab as a punish.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
Yes he did. His options when he has a tire are still not that good. The problem is his very slow tosses. He takes too long to actually throw the tire in most cases. However, something you CAN abuse that is hard is if MK is spacing Fair on your shield kinda poorly, you can glide toss backwards and punish him where as your other options probably would fail.

But yes. Tire in hand isn't that great when shielding, especially if you want to shield grab as a punish.
so how bad is a down glide toss away as an escape option ? Even if you want to shield grab for a punish. Wouldn't escaping and resetting the distance etc etc etc be a viable option? If Jump away gets you punished. How much safer in the regards is this option? Also if you Z drop the tire won't you be able to shield grab ?
 

ssbbFICTION

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
2,535
glide-tossing away isn't necessarily a bad option..but it wastes you a tire-throw...you would still want to not get caught in that situation.

plus like dmg said you can't shieldgrab..which is NEVER good
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
glide-tossing away isn't necessarily a bad option..but it wastes you a tire-throw...you would still want to not get caught in that situation.

plus like dmg said you can't shieldgrab..which is NEVER good
Okay I see. So if we do end up shielding it'd be something like this. As to our preferred options which is all dependent on which move our opponent hit on our shield.

Shield Grab

Glide toss away

Jump away

Get grabbed ?

Depending on the character stage etc etc etc each option could be different right ? If our goal is to take as little damage as possible while shielding is glide toss away not the optimal thing ? Since depending on the character/ move they used to poke our shield spacing etc etc etc. Couldn't the glide toss open up more possibilities in terms of punishing. Since they can't chase us because of the tire (they may get hit) They can shield the tire allowing us to go back on the offensive since Wario's glide toss isn't that long. Or they can catch the tire in which we'll be able to respond ? I'm not sure and I'll end my post here and I'm confused now.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
If you throw a tire at someone without moving towards them substantially at the same time, they will easily have enough time to respond to your next move. Whether they shield or grab it. Moving away from someone and then tossing it, like glide tossing backwards, gives them even more time to react. You will not be able to put on any more pressure even if the tire hits. It's mostly for moments where you are too far away to punish something safe by nearly most standards.
 
Top Bottom