Doc's Worst Matchups

[ZADD]

Hello fellow docs, let me start by saying I love this character! He gets a terrible rep being a clone and having a meh recovery, but his potential continues to surprise me as I B-air combo opponents into oblivion!

I ask tho, what MU's can the Good Doctor simply not handle and why?

In a game with a roster this massive, there have to be obvious counterpicks, and the more general knowledge we have the better Doc mains can approach said MUs.

IMO Anyone who thrives on bait and grab that can outspace Doc...
-Donkey Kong, Palutena, DeDeDe

 

[KeeblerGuy]

The MUs you have listed are not ones I have trouble with. In fact, Donkey Kong and King DeDeDe I feel are in Doc's favor. They can't pressure him with projectiles, so Doc has stage control with pills. DK's range is no match for Doc's priority in Dair and DownB and DK can be caped if mastered, yet be careful when comboing (make sure it is tight enough so they can't UpB escape). King DeDeDe's Gordos are easy to predict and can be caped, jabbed, nair'd, etc., but assume central stage control for DDD edgeguard can cost a stock. Palutena is even in my opinion, but Doc has better combos and has a higher kill threat than her.

MUs I personally struggle with are Falco and ZSS. Falco's edgeguard with Fair absolutely destroys Doc, costing a stock 95% of the time. Falco also has good stage control with lasers and can reflect pills fast and easy with DownB (also an annoying spacing tool against Doc). To counter Falco, stay central stage and abuse DownB (in the air to prevent your opponent's OoS options). The idea is that you want to control the neutral better than Falco. ZSS is literally Doc, but with better tools. She spaces and can get in close range for punishes/combos. The only thing Doc has over her is Cape, Pills, and the absolute power of DownB's control. Use pills to keep her away from you, and cape any paralyzer shots fired at you. A good ZSS will pressure with Zair, but shield and dash grab if she comes in too close. Caping her is difficult because she can use her tether to be perfectly safe from it. If she does DownB or UpB, it is fairly easy to predict what they are going to use depending on how close they are to the stage, so the distance is a little precise. Being able to cape any of these recoveries after she uses a double jump results in a KO.

Though not impossible, these MUs are difficult for Doc. Best MUs for Doc are generally DK, Cpt. Falcon, Ganondorf, Little Mac, Ness, and (surprisingly) Sheik. Again, these are my experiences and I am only noting these from players I have faced that actually main the characters and go to tournies. Hope this info helped and PM if you don't understand something I'm addressing.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd like to know your reasoning behind Sheik being a good MU for Doc. Everything else I agree with, though I'd say Doc doesn't do bad against Falco.

 

[Dobbston]

I don't think Dr. Mario has any really awful match-ups just without wavedashing it's really hard to consistently space and avoid things like dash attacks and dash grabs after throwing out SH aerials.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think Dr. Mario has any really awful match-ups just without wavedashing it's really hard to consistently space and avoid things like dash attacks and dash grabs after throwing out SH aerials.

Don't forget L-cancelling.

 

[Dobbston]

Don't forget L-cancelling.

Obviously L-cancelling is good but wavedashing would be a lot more useful for Dr. Mario since most of Dr. Mario's aerials don't have all that much lag anyway; SH Bair into a wavedash is great in melee but now Dr. Mario no longer has that option. SHFF Bair is still good in SSB4 and you can go right into shield but you can still get grabbed as you land; in melee you can wavedash away from your opponent as you land and it's a great way to space without having commit to anything like a roll.

 

[KenMeister]

Marth is still a pretty bad matchup for Doc, especially since he doesn't have the speed or range to get in safely without getting spaced out entirely by a confident Marth.

 

[Luggy]

In general, fast characters are a problem for , especially or . It's like this for any defensive character.
/ is also a bad matchup, since they still have a better spacing game than him.

I'll say that Doc is more of a "Low and Mid Tier killer" than a "High and Top Tier killer". He can be good against some of them, but it requires a lot of work, especially for fast characters that are generally in those tiers.

 

[KenMeister]

In general, fast characters are a problem for , especially or . It's like this for any defensive character.
/ is also a bad matchup, since they still have a better spacing game than him.

I'll say that Doc is more of a "Low and Mid Tier killer" than a "High and Top Tier killer". He can be good against some of them, but it requires a lot of work, especially for fast characters that are generally in those tiers.

Agreed, characters like ZSS are a bit of a pain, but it's still very much do-able and not as bad as people think. I believe it'd be something like 55-45 ZSS for example.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Just a tip against ZSS you should crouch a lot since her attacks have a hard time hitting smaller characters

 

[Kisatamura]

ZSS is one of my favorite matchups, actually. It's one of those matches that should be incredibly hard, but it's easier than it looks. While ZSS does have greater mobility and range than Doc, some of Dr. Mario's moves will usually beat ZSS's attacks and strings, not to mention that she is prey to more combos from Doc due to her weight and size. It's still in her favor obviously, but she'll need to react to your pills either way.

Sonic is a funny matchup because you have access to several moves that will beat out Sonic, but he's supposed to be baiting you anyway. Marth/Lucina is always a fun matchup though, since it really teaches you about spacing baiting Marth/Lucina so that you can get upclose. Sheik however is the worst matchup IMO even though Tornado can block her recovery

In general, fast characters are a problem for

It kind of depends. Both him and Mario almost share the same frame data, though obviously Mario can actually punish people from faraway unlike Doc. But Dr. Mario has better combo breakers depending on the matchup, like against ZSS or another Mario lol. But he lacks quick ways to punish fast characters like Falcon, so I can probably agree with this.

IMO Anyone who thrives on bait and grab that can outspace Doc...
-Donkey Kong, Palutena, DeDeDe

DK has generally been perceived as a even character for Dr. Mario even in Melee, and this is just due to the fact that while DK does outrange Doc, Doc is capable of forcing DK to approach and being able to beat him up close. Dedede should easier for Doc since his gordos are pretty much going to be thrown back by a pill, and he's somewhat the same as DK in the range department but slower. IDK about Palutena, but I'm pretty sure Doc just needs to rush her and punish her at close range accordingly.

MUs I personally struggle with are Falco and ZSS.

I'm pretty sure I face alot of Falcos that use DownB as an approach, and I'm not sure if that's how you play Falco or not. Either way, Falco reflecting pills from far away does nothing, but him reflecting at midrange is a bit risky. From my knowledge, throwing a pill from a full hop onto Falco is great since he'll need to time the reflector. You can always cape a reflected pill if you need to, because lasers are actually a commitment from Falco and if you reflect them, Falco might not recover in time. Regardless, Falco's DownB is mainly used for harassment: if it trips you, be on the lookout for Falco trying to read your roll. Your bair beats his by alot, so I kind of agree with your statement that Falco can be poor in neutral if he's not spamming DownB. All I know is that his recovery moves can be beaten with high priority moves such as Tornado or in my case, a well timed Fair against Falco's SideB. It should be an even MU though.

 

[BloodL10N]

I seriously made an account just to post on this thread. I'm not sure how that makes me feel...

Anyways the worst MU's for Doc that I've found at least to be on FG are Rosalina & Luma, Shulk, Marth/Lucina, Sonic, Sheik.

Rosalina:

Is at the front mainly because of Luma, every single one of Doc's hits on Luma first creating zero stun on Rosalina which means she's still able to act even as you throw out a f-smash or Bair, even then if your hit connects with Rosalina first Luma is still able to Up-smash your approach. All of Rosalina's aerials outrange Doc or trade with him almost nullifying his Bair game. Doc has a fairly reasonable MU potential against everyone but a good Rosalina main will always beat a Doc.

Don'ts: Don't ever underestimate the range of Rosalina's aerials from her Nair to Dair if it doesn't look like its going to hit you, it probably will along with her charge shot in which she launches out Luma, this move does kill.


Shulk:

If you're playing against a spacing Shulk and you're not using fox trot shielding or some other method of approach you're going to get Fair'd, Nair'd to death, although there are several openings to punish with your Bair, a surprise Fair or even Nair.
For instance if Shulk is prepping a F-smash best punishes due to ending lag on all of Shulk's smashes in my cases are: Dash, Pivot, Short hop, Bair. This usually can be done before the move goes off and if successful shorthopping over any or all of his smashes.

Don'ts: Don't dash attack, ever. Nair and Fair will punish it every time or even a possible Fsmash. Approach using pills and Nairs.


Marth/Lucina:

Not going to go into this one because the difficulties have already been listed above with this MU.

Don'ts: Don't use your F-smash on a counter-heavy Marth/Lucina, it will kill. D-smash and foxtrotting shielding will make it a little bit more bearable along with your pills, if s/he is spacing you out space them out with retreating pills until they make a mistake.


Sonic:

This is a rough MU especially on FG where this character shines due to lag where timing Doc's cape becomes a chore rather than a tool. A well placed Cape can ruin any Sonic but the timing is very short, not only that but Sonic's side-b rush into U-air is almost guaranteed without some kind of DI. Sonic is able to edge-guard Doc like nothing as well using his spring offstage to knock Doc out of his jump/recovery. Thankfully the Tornado is able to plow through the spring, but the timing [with FG] is horrifying. If you're playing against a Sonic with a really bad internet connection there's usually a reason for it.
Otherwise this is not the worst MU for Doc.

Don'ts: Don't let go of your shield too early, learn the timing along with how many hits each of Sonic's attacks dish out. Don't use just your Up-B to recover, the Tornado is tricky to use at times but it catches A LOT of people off guard when you recover from a place that you normally wouldn't with Up-B.

I'm not a master by any means, but these are just some of the MU's that I've found and how to do deal with some of​

them. Surprisingly Diddy Kong isn't Doc's worst MU, its one of his better ones.

Sorry for spilling out so much stuff, just thought it was an interesting topic as a PhD main wanted to put in.

Edit: I forgot OoSO such as, Shield, short hop, up-b. This works in a lot of cases especially on Sonic and Sheik.

 

[MightyJake]

I can never get Dr. Mario to work right against a Greninja. Probably due to greninja's speed but i'm not sure.

 

[BloodL10N]

Greninja is an interesting matchup probably a 52:48 advantage to Doc because Geninja's recovery can be gimped so easily via cape. If you're trying to rush down Greninja its not going to work, he outspeeds and out-combos Doc. Honestly if you want to take on a Greninja best bet is probably a wall of Nairs, Pills and Nado for approach, pills for retreat.

 

[Dustydog96]

The MUs you have listed are not ones I have trouble with. In fact, Donkey Kong and King DeDeDe I feel are in Doc's favor. They can't pressure him with projectiles, so Doc has stage control with pills. DK's range is no match for Doc's priority in Dair and DownB and DK can be caped if mastered, yet be careful when comboing (make sure it is tight enough so they can't UpB escape). King DeDeDe's Gordos are easy to predict and can be caped, jabbed, nair'd, etc., but assume central stage control for DDD edgeguard can cost a stock. Palutena is even in my opinion, but Doc has better combos and has a higher kill threat than her.

MUs I personally struggle with are Falco and ZSS. Falco's edgeguard with Fair absolutely destroys Doc, costing a stock 95% of the time. Falco also has good stage control with lasers and can reflect pills fast and easy with DownB (also an annoying spacing tool against Doc). To counter Falco, stay central stage and abuse DownB (in the air to prevent your opponent's OoS options). The idea is that you want to control the neutral better than Falco. ZSS is literally Doc, but with better tools. She spaces and can get in close range for punishes/combos. The only thing Doc has over her is Cape, Pills, and the absolute power of DownB's control. Use pills to keep her away from you, and cape any paralyzer shots fired at you. A good ZSS will pressure with Zair, but shield and dash grab if she comes in too close. Caping her is difficult because she can use her tether to be perfectly safe from it. If she does DownB or UpB, it is fairly easy to predict what they are going to use depending on how close they are to the stage, so the distance is a little precise. Being able to cape any of these recoveries after she uses a double jump results in a KO.

Though not impossible, these MUs are difficult for Doc. Best MUs for Doc are generally DK, Cpt. Falcon, Ganondorf, Little Mac, Ness, and (surprisingly) Sheik. Again, these are my experiences and I am only noting these from players I have faced that actually main the characters and go to tournies. Hope this info helped and PM if you don't understand something I'm addressing.

I totally agree with you here. I'm a Dr. Mario main and just finished a match with Zero Suit Samus. I came back a whole stock at 170% and won. But you have to be SUPER safe vs zero suit samus which makes it a super hard matchup. Doc thrives on grabs and getting in close with his nairs and samus by bare range seems to counter anything doc is trying to do. Her grab totally stomps doc's grab too. Just have to play super safe and keep tossing your pills to win. Getting in close is hard but when it happens it's pretty nice, just hard to stay in close.

 

[M@v]

People with lots of range and or speed are bad news because you either can't catch them if they run, or don't have the speed to negate their range advantage (like Mario does). So people like shulk, marth/Lucina, roslalina come to mind. Sonic can be there too but if the sonic doesn't know the mu they won't be able to stop down b which beats out basically everything he has.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is an interesting matchup probably a 52:48 advantage to Doc because Geninja's recovery can be gimped so easily via cape. If you're trying to rush down Greninja its not going to work, he outspeeds and out-combos Doc. Honestly if you want to take on a Greninja best bet is probably a wall of Nairs, Pills and Nado for approach, pills for retreat.

Uh, no. Greninja's recovery is not easy to gimp at all, it's among the safest in the game. Shadow Sneak can't be gimped with the cape as the only thing it'll do is flip Greninja a bit, and Hydro Pump can be angled in so many different ways and Greninja can just go over Doc if he needs to. Doc is slow so by the time he catches up to Greninja his landing lag is already going to be over. Platforms make recovering a lot easier too since it gives us even more options. The only way you're going to gimp Greninja is if you get a very good read or the Greninja is very predictable with his recovery.

Meanwhile Greninja outspeeds and out-combos Doc as you've said yourself, and Greninja also can gimp Doc so badly it's not even funny, what with b-air and Hydro Pump being excellent gimping tools. The only real advantage Doc has over Greninja is that he packs more power behind his attacks and a better frame data, Greninja has the combos, kill-setups, gimping and mobility over him. Water Shuriken also makes use of pills difficult since with the way they bounce, it's likely that the shuriken will either cancel the pill or just go right under it and hit Doc due to how fast they are.

The MU is probably 60:40 in Greninja's favor, maybe more.

 

[Dustydog96]

Uh, no. Greninja's recovery is not easy to gimp at all, it's among the safest in the game. Shadow Sneak can't be gimped with the cape as the only thing it'll do is flip Greninja a bit, and Hydro Pump can be angled in so many different ways and Greninja can just go over Doc if he needs to. Doc is slow so by the time he catches up to Greninja his landing lag is already going to be over. Platforms make recovering a lot easier too since it gives us even more options. The only way you're going to gimp Greninja is if you get a very good read or the Greninja is very predictable with his recovery.

Meanwhile Greninja outspeeds and out-combos Doc as you've said yourself, and Greninja also can gimp Doc so badly it's not even funny, what with b-air and Hydro Pump being excellent gimping tools. The only real advantage Doc has over Greninja is that he packs more power behind his attacks and a better frame data, Greninja has the combos, kill-setups, gimping and mobility over him. Water Shuriken also makes use of pills difficult since with the way they bounce, it's likely that the shuriken will either cancel the pill or just go right under it and hit Doc due to how fast they are.

The MU is probably 60:40 in Greninja's favor, maybe more.

lol such damage control. i've played the greninja doc matchup as doc many times and doc is def advantaged

 

[meleebrawler]

Uh, no. Greninja's recovery is not easy to gimp at all, it's among the safest in the game. Shadow Sneak can't be gimped with the cape as the only thing it'll do is flip Greninja a bit, and Hydro Pump can be angled in so many different ways and Greninja can just go over Doc if he needs to. Doc is slow so by the time he catches up to Greninja his landing lag is already going to be over. Platforms make recovering a lot easier too since it gives us even more options. The only way you're going to gimp Greninja is if you get a very good read or the Greninja is very predictable with his recovery.

Meanwhile Greninja outspeeds and out-combos Doc as you've said yourself, and Greninja also can gimp Doc so badly it's not even funny, what with b-air and Hydro Pump being excellent gimping tools. The only real advantage Doc has over Greninja is that he packs more power behind his attacks and a better frame data, Greninja has the combos, kill-setups, gimping and mobility over him. Water Shuriken also makes use of pills difficult since with the way they bounce, it's likely that the shuriken will either cancel the pill or just go right under it and hit Doc due to how fast they are.

The MU is probably 60:40 in Greninja's favor, maybe more.

To say nothing of how Greninja's low profile makes pills fly over him a lot.

Doc does have a potent Up B out of shield which makes badly spaced attacks on him
less safe than they initially appear what with Doc's slow movement, and sheet is a pretty
solid answer to shurikens, so Doc can win if he plays extra safe (as usual against speed).

 

[BloodL10N]

Uh, no. Greninja's recovery is not easy to gimp at all, it's among the safest in the game. Shadow Sneak can't be gimped with the cape as the only thing it'll do is flip Greninja a bit, and Hydro Pump can be angled in so many different ways and Greninja can just go over Doc if he needs to. Doc is slow so by the time he catches up to Greninja his landing lag is already going to be over. Platforms make recovering a lot easier too since it gives us even more options. The only way you're going to gimp Greninja is if you get a very good read or the Greninja is very predictable with his recovery.

The MU is probably 60:40 in Greninja's favor, maybe more.

You act like I dumped acid onto your character or something, in a rushdown situation yeah Greninja has the advantage why I put it at 52:48 and not so extreme as your 40:60, a Doc player is not going to be playing the Rushdown game to try and keep pace with Greninja its not possible in that regard but as regards everything else though its definitely not that out of favor for Doc unless you've been playing some really bad PhD's.

And the pills, the pills aren't there to hit you every time, they're there to control your approach.

Doc is a very control over the match oriented, he controls your approach, controls your projectiles that you plan on sending his way and even controls your recovery if you're not smart. He is a control freak.

 

[Luggy]

is a real problem for when the player is good. I fought one in a friendly tournament online and couldn't do a thing against him. The problem that I have with Sonic is the pressure he can get without being punished that much. Anybody got some tips to fight him ?

Ironically, I find the matchup of Doc with pretty even. While Sheik sure has a lot of potential on the ground, she still needs the K.O move to kill Doc. And Doc can still stop her from gimping him with a nice tornado. The pills helps a lot stoping her approaches, and Doc can K.O her at good percentages. The only things Doc needs to look out is really the spacing. If Doc is too predictable and doesn't read right, Sheik can come back easily. But overall, for me, Sheik VS Doc is a 50:50. It's only my opinion.

 

[KenMeister]

is a real problem for when the player is good. I fought one in a friendly tournament online and couldn't do a thing against him. The problem that I have with Sonic is the pressure he can get without being punished that much. Anybody got some tips to fight him ?

Ironically, I find the matchup of Doc with pretty even. While Sheik sure has a lot of potential on the ground, she still needs the K.O move to kill Doc. And Doc can still stop her from gimping him with a nice tornado. The pills helps a lot stoping her approaches, and Doc can K.O her at good percentages. The only things Doc needs to look out is really the spacing. If Doc is too predictable and doesn't read right, Sheik can come back easily. But overall, for me, Sheik VS Doc is a 50:50. It's only my opinion.

For Sonic, bair and downB are going to be your best friends, as they beat out just about everything he throws at you. Your OoS options work well here too, so abuse them if you can get the good reads. It's still tough though, especially if Sonic decides to not commit at all, but it's still doable. Like around 60-40 I believe.
As for Sheik, nope, not even at all. Sheik has a grab setup on us that can carry us off stage with fairs at low percents, which already puts the matchup at a disadvantage for us. I can agree with mostly everything else, though. A lot of people tend to forget that Sheik's normals are about as weak as Mario's, if not weaker, so we win the trade game, as bair and nado beat everything if she decides to be hyper aggressive (there's a reason why Sheik has a bad matchup against Kirby lol). Defensive Sheiks will be what gives us the most trouble, though, as Doc has no real safe way around camped needles (especially on FD), and the grab setups I mentioned if she can use the needles on you correctly? Yeah, just pray that your nair can get you out of them. 55-45 because it's mostly play-style dependent.

 

[FullMoon]

You act like I dumped acid onto your character or something, in a rushdown situation yeah Greninja has the advantage why I put it at 52:48 and not so extreme as your 40:60, a Doc player is not going to be playing the Rushdown game to try and keep pace with Greninja its not possible in that regard but as regards everything else though its definitely not that out of favor for Doc unless you've been playing some really bad PhD's.

And the pills, the pills aren't there to hit you every time, they're there to control your approach.

Doc is a very control over the match oriented, he controls your approach, controls your projectiles that you plan on sending his way and even controls your recovery if you're not smart. He is a control freak.

I definitely did not want it to come across that way and if it did I'm sorry.

But I just can't see how Doc could be in any advantage over Greninja when the only thing he has over him is power and I guess better OoS options. The pills can be used to force an approach, sure, but in most cases shurikens are going to beat the pills due to being faster, not only that but Greninja can just run under the pill as it's bouncing and grab Doc.

He might have an advantage on the neutral due to combination of pills and sheet, but once Greninja gets the first hit in it can be really difficult for Doc to reset to neutral, while if Greninja is at a disadvantage, it's not that hard for him to result to neutral with Hydro Pump, and Greninja completely wrecks Doc off-stage.

I just honestly can't see how Doc can have an advantage over Greninja

 

[KenMeister]

I just honestly can't see how Doc can have an advantage over Doc.

Because Doc doesn't have the tools to remedy himself.

 

[FullMoon]

Because Doc doesn't have the tools to remedy himself.

And that is why I shouldn't post just after waking up.

 

[BloodL10N]

And that is why I shouldn't post just after waking up.

Nah I wasn't trying to create any kind of hostile discussion, I mean we could play a match and you could completely stomp me, different people have different play styles, my MU experience is based off of FG, I've both lost and have won against Greninja so you might have a playstyle that counters a Doc really really well. I have a playstyle that works really really well against rushdown characters like Sheik but then I get absolutely trashed by Rosalina's even if they're not that good. Lol

 

[warionumbah2]

my MU experience is based off of FG,

You should start playing on Anthers ladder/Nintendo Dojo for real MU experience. FG is the last thing you wanna reference when discussing MU.

 

[BloodL10N]

You should start playing on Anthers ladder/Nintendo Dojo for real MU experience. FG is the last thing you wanna reference when discussing MU.

Lol that GIF is hilarious, and yeah I need to get into it a little bit more but its just not something I can do right now, so if someone has more MU experience put in by all means

 

[Kisatamura]

Greninja is a funny matchup. He definitely has some untapped potential and a couple tricks that you may need to get used to.

A couple weeks ago on Smashladder I faced against a Greninja that would use Hydro Pump akin to Mario's FLUDD to make himself safe. However Doc can play the waiting game better than Greninja IMO since Tornado and Bair can send Greninja out of close range. I'm not sure if Tornado can block Greninja's recovery offstage, but reacting to Shadow Sneak is just player skill related to me, as it's better to block it and punish it instead of caping. I guess Greninja's projectile is good in certain cases, though Doc can just cape it since Greninja has to commit to it.

Greninja offstage is also weird. While I'm not sure if other Docs on this board try to recover high with Tornado, Tornado itself can sometimes out-prioritize Greninja's aerials as long as he's either slightly below Greninja, or uses Tornado before Greninja does any of his attacks. Greninja can recover over Doc and get away with it if he's far away, though Doc waiting near the middle of the stage can catch Greninja.

Either way Greninja's physics allow him to get comboed by Doc, but I think the match is essentially Doc shooing away Greninja while Greninja needs to find a way to get in up close. It doesn't feel like an advantageous MU since Doc only has a couple answers up close, but Greninja can't exactly approach without getting hit by Tornado, Bair, pills or caped projectiles. It should be even IMO

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is a funny matchup. He definitely has some untapped potential and a couple tricks that you may need to get used to.

A couple weeks ago on Smashladder I faced against a Greninja that would use Hydro Pump akin to Mario's FLUDD to make himself safe. However Doc can play the waiting game better than Greninja IMO since Tornado and Bair can send Greninja out of close range. I'm not sure if Tornado can block Greninja's recovery offstage, but reacting to Shadow Sneak is just player skill related to me, as it's better to block it and punish it instead of caping. I guess Greninja's projectile is good in certain cases, though Doc can just cape it since Greninja has to commit to it.

Greninja offstage is also weird. While I'm not sure if other Docs on this board try to recover high with Tornado, Tornado itself can sometimes out-prioritize Greninja's aerials as long as he's either slightly below Greninja, or uses Tornado before Greninja does any of his attacks. Greninja can recover over Doc and get away with it if he's far away, though Doc waiting near the middle of the stage can catch Greninja.

Either way Greninja's physics allow him to get comboed by Doc, but I think the match is essentially Doc shooing away Greninja while Greninja needs to find a way to get in up close. It doesn't feel like an advantageous MU since Doc only has a couple answers up close, but Greninja can't exactly approach without getting hit by Tornado, Bair, pills or caped projectiles. It should be even IMO

Well, I'm pretty sure you can't punish Shadow Sneak if you shield it. Most of the time Greninja will Shadow Sneak just out of the ledge, so that if you shield, he's going to fall and you can't punish him for it. You could also say that this puts Greninja in a position to be stage spiked since he has to recover vertically, but even then he can mix up his recovery by either going straight up or diagonally.

If Doc is using Tornado for recovery though, you need to be wary of Hydro Pump. Greninja can very easily use it to put Doc in a disadvantageous position and punish the end lag of the tornado with a b-air, making so that Doc has to recover likely without a double jump which often spells doom.

Also, all of the options you're saying that makes it hard for Greninja to approach can be beaten with a dash shield and punished with at least a jab (not sure on b-air though) except pills and even then it depends on the distance between the characters. It can lead to Greninja leaving himself open to a grab though, but it's still a very good option.

The thing to keep in mind about Greninja is that he's very versatile. Hydro Pump is basically Quick Attack except less fast in exchange for gimping potential and that alone makes Greninja hard to catch since he can use the water while you're in the air to put you in positions where you're very vulnerable to his attacks and makes it a lot easier for him to catch your landing as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

Unlike Luigi, Doctor Mario doesn't need insane mashing to recover with tornado without a jump.
If he's cool-headed, he can preserve his jump even after getting sprayed.

 

[Luggy]

Well, I'm pretty sure you can't punish Shadow Sneak if you shield it. Most of the time Greninja will Shadow Sneak just out of the ledge, so that if you shield, he's going to fall and you can't punish him for it. You could also say that this puts Greninja in a position to be stage spiked since he has to recover vertically, but even then he can mix up his recovery by either going straight up or diagonally.

If Doc is using Tornado for recovery though, you need to be wary of Hydro Pump. Greninja can very easily use it to put Doc in a disadvantageous position and punish the end lag of the tornado with a b-air, making so that Doc has to recover likely without a double jump which often spells doom.

Also, all of the options you're saying that makes it hard for Greninja to approach can be beaten with a dash shield and punished with at least a jab (not sure on b-air though) except pills and even then it depends on the distance between the characters. It can lead to Greninja leaving himself open to a grab though, but it's still a very good option.

The thing to keep in mind about Greninja is that he's very versatile. Hydro Pump is basically Quick Attack except less fast in exchange for gimping potential and that alone makes Greninja hard to catch since he can use the water while you're in the air to put you in positions where you're very vulnerable to his attacks and makes it a lot easier for him to catch your landing as well.

I usually don't play Greninja with Doc for safety. I usually pick Fox in this matchup, or even Falco.

But Doc vs Greninja is not that horrible. A good Doc will know how to stop Greninja and will know how to not get gimped by Greninja. It's a mixbag : either the Greninja doesn't know how to beat Doc and gets punish for it or Greninja knows what to do. Doc can also K.O Greninja pretty fast near the edge with a good Dsmash or a UpB.

Don't over-estimate your character : even when the matchup looks to be in your favor, you still can be punished for it. When you talk about the matchup between Doc and Greninja, you seem to over-estimate your main, saying that Doc can't do anything. But I have a question though : have you encountered the matchup before ? And if it is, how much ?
Then we can talk about real prognosis of the matchup.

Well, sorry if I sounded rude or anything like it. I never intended to.

 

[KenMeister]

my MU experience is based off of FG

Go watch your hopes and dreams be crushed on Anther's Ladder.

 

[meleebrawler]

I usually don't play Greninja with Doc for safety. I usually pick Fox in this matchup, or even Falco.

But Doc vs Greninja is not that horrible. A good Doc will know how to stop Greninja and will know how to not get gimped by Greninja. It's a mixbag : either the Greninja doesn't know how to beat Doc and gets punish for it or Greninja knows what to do. Doc can also K.O Greninja pretty fast near the edge with a good Dsmash or a UpB.

Don't over-estimate your character : even when the matchup looks to be in your favor, you still can be punished for it. When you talk about the matchup between Doc and Greninja, you seem to over-estimate your main, saying that Doc can't do anything. But I have a question though : have you encountered the matchup before ? And if it is, how much ?
Then we can talk about real prognosis of the matchup.

Well, sorry if I sounded rude or anything like it. I never intended to.

No one epitomizes the "this character can wreck you if you get complacent" like Zelda does.

 

[FullMoon]

I usually don't play Greninja with Doc for safety. I usually pick Fox in this matchup, or even Falco.

But Doc vs Greninja is not that horrible. A good Doc will know how to stop Greninja and will know how to not get gimped by Greninja. It's a mixbag : either the Greninja doesn't know how to beat Doc and gets punish for it or Greninja knows what to do. Doc can also K.O Greninja pretty fast near the edge with a good Dsmash or a UpB.

Don't over-estimate your character : even when the matchup looks to be in your favor, you still can be punished for it. When you talk about the matchup between Doc and Greninja, you seem to over-estimate your main, saying that Doc can't do anything. But I have a question though : have you encountered the matchup before ? And if it is, how much ?
Then we can talk about real prognosis of the matchup.

Well, sorry if I sounded rude or anything like it. I never intended to.

I know the MU is not that bad for Doc, it's why I said it's 60:40 in Greninja's favor. It's a slight advantage and it's far from unbeatable.

I've played against Docs before and I know that he's far from helpless in this fight. I'm just saying that Greninja has a lot of options that can make keeping him away very difficult for Doc and Greninja can certainly overwhelm him up close with how fast he is. Doc does have the benefit of power which does make so that he can KO Greninja very early if an opportunity presents itself.

The way I see this MU is more or less like this:

In the neutral, Doc has the advantage due to the sheet making shurikens less reliable. Pills do make it a bit harder for Greninja to approach, but the way they bounce can make it so that Greninja could go under them no trouble, considering the end-lag that pills have when used (at least they do seem to leave you vulnerable quite a bit, I do second Mario), this could result in Doc leaving himself open for Greninja's amazing dash grab if he's on the ground, or an Up-Smash if he's on the the air. So pills aren't a very safe option, though they're still certainly valid. Still, Greninja does have problems in the neutral in general, though he does have some good spacing options against Doc in b-air and f-air.

When Doc is at a disadvantage, it can be hard for him to shake Greninja away. Greninja has the speed to chase him around and he can really juggle Doc around with his aerials. Doc can stop the juggling with a n-air though and that's probably what he should try to do, though it needs to be timed well because I think up-air and b-air can still hit Doc if he's too far from Greninja.

When Greninja is at a disadvantage, it's easier for him to escape thanks to Doc's poor mobility making it harder for him to chase him around. Hydro Pump is also a good way to escape while pushing Doc away and reset to neutral (which is not necessarily that much better because see above, but at least pills can't kill).

Offstage, Greninja has a clear advantage where he can very much take a stock off Doc with a b-air or a well timed Hydro Pump. Tornado does improve his poor recovery significantly, however the end lag of the move means that if Greninja times it well, a b-air can be used to keep Doc away from the ledge. Doc can keep Greninja away from the stage with b-air and he can gimp with a sheet, but Greninja's excellent recovery makes it very hard for him to do it, though I think it's possible to intercept Hydro Pump with tornado and if that happens, then that could very easily result in a kill for Doc, but it's not something that would happen very consistently either.

The way I see it, Greninja can really exploit Doc's flaws (poor mobility and poor recovery). Doc can take advantage of Greninja's rather poor neutral game, but once the ninja gets in, things can get very complicated for Doc. The MU is far from unbeatable as Doc can change the tide of the battle very easily with a well placed Smash attack or Up-B, but I think there's a lot going against him in this battle. So I think Greninja has a slight advantage over him.

 

[BloodL10N]

Go watch your hopes and dreams be crushed on Anther's Ladder.

Already tried it out, Got trashed the first couple times, its just such a different play style, out of 7 matches I've lost 6 so... GO ME! I think...

Although the first 2 were against Ness, who combos Doc into oblivion, other two were against a Shulk, who also combos Doc into oblivion. Just gotta get better

 

[Holla@ChaBoi390]

Just keep practicing. Ness is a difficult yet doable match up once you learn his quirks. The biggest one being his surprising range IMO

 

[Dustydog96]

seems really hard for . Sonic out-speeds him on ground, air, and has more range. The speed really shakes me up when vsing Sonic forcing me to play a very defensive game. Think of it as a snorlax taking a beating from a hitmonchan. Snorlax being . Very hard to get good reads as well considering how fast sonic is moving.

 

[warionumbah2]

I agree with fullmoons reasonings as to why its 60:40 in frogs favor, I actually think MK has the same ratio against him but for different reasons. MK goes even with the bros but Doc lacks tools that allow mario and luigi to stay a threat, mobility hurts doc alot. Will edit this post later to go into more detail.

55:45 is a slight advantage but 60:40 is a noticeable advantage.

And fyi for the post above, a lot and I mean alot of characters outspeed him so does that mean his mu across the board is garbage?


Main problem Doc has against MK is keeping the momentum going, MK disadvantage state is non existent and Docs mobility is garbage this means MK can always get away scott free without getting punished. His advantageous state on MK is poor too due to his mobility again, unlike Luigi his rewards out of down throw is low despite having good damage per hit. Seriously down throw to uair is the only guaranteed follow up, all MK has to do is jump away after the uair.

MK can safely zone him out with dairs which beat out Docs uairs, his low jump height makes it even easier to zone him. Docs pills cannot force approaches nor apply any sort of pressure to MK and the end lag after throwing pills is worse than Mario's i think.

Off stage is in MK, Doc specializes in low edgeguards and DC invalidates all edgeguard attempts. Docs down b can cover his recovery but MK can potentially jump over you and use side b deliberately to intercept your 2nd jump or up b to snap the ledge.

Doc has no way of getting out of juggles since disjoints > nair but its worth throwing out anyway just cause. However Docs amazing normals and damage per hit keeps him in the game and his kill options are more vast compared to Mario's. And his OOS options are great for example OOS bair for racking up damage and SJP for kills.

His down b is a good get off me move on stage but very punishable, his bad i think MK Dtilt just out ranges his Ftilt(?) MK is a campy/defensive/bait and punish character while Doc is supposed to be the more defensive oriented Mario. Shockingly enough MK punishes are scarier than Docs despite the low damage on his normals, Doc's Utilts are stupidly good its hard to set up.

Once MK gets the lead its an up hill battle since Doc isn't really aggressive and if you choose to be patient MK wil simply not approach, his ground game is overall better too.

Customs make things slightly less bad, its definitely a closer fight but not in his favor. Will edit this more since i rushed this(probably typo's ugh).

I disagree TTTsd i think Doc has MU's that are 60:40 max imo probably more against Rosalina.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I don't think it's simply speed. I think a likelier cause of bad MUs is when they have speed and better frame data, or other such things. Mario outspeeds him in movement but that MU is even, etc.

Really his worst MUs that I can think of being notably bad and not minorly disadvantageous are Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, probably Rosalina too. Everything else is either even or a minor loss I wager.

Kind of like Dictator in Super Turbo where MUs across the board are MOSTLY winnable even though it's usually like slight disadvantage, but then there's like a handful of ones you just HAVE to switch for, and probably should =P